The XP Penalty is the worst thing in Path of Exile, remove it !!!

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Echothesis wrote:

Eh, now I feel bad, even though hope you weren't referring to me :)

I had no specific user in mind, no worries.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

And the point came up again that exp penalty deters makign glass cannon, yolo builds. It doesn't and I agree with Echothesis, limited portals fills this role sufficiently.

Correct. Like I said in a previous posts, there are other penalties already. Portals for maps and bosses, failed nodes/lost loot in delve, lost lab run progress in labyrinth. The XP penalty is another penalty on top.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

@raics: it almost seemed like for a moment when you looked at the flip side, that you were actually making the same point as me and agreeing lol. Currently, because there is no special achievement for Level 100, there is no reason for the exp penalty. If that changed, then yes there would be new special meaning for level 100, and there would be renewed reasoning to keep the exp penalty.

I do agree that it WOULD have a point in a race setting, where leveling the fastest is the entire point. But if that is the case, and since races are special events, then just implement the exp penalty in those races. They already have special rules for special events, why can't exp penalty be just another special obstacle? The base game holds no such competitive need.

And the point came up again that exp penalty deters makign glass cannon, yolo builds. It doesn't and I agree with Echothesis, limited portals fills this role sufficiently. What the exp penalty actually does (for players who care about it) is twofold: it causes players to run easier content or get carried to a level, and it causes players to strategically run bosses and harder content only when they have either just leveled up, or have less than 10% exp in their new level so that the death penalty doesn't hold any actual meaning. It really doesn't do anything to make you build more defensively. If you die often, its the lack of portals and loot that gets you to stop doing the hard content, not the loss of exp. Because if you cared about exp, you wouldn't even be trying the harder content to begin with.

Haha, well that's the beauty of it, it can be seen from both sides.
- If it's worthless, why do you want it?
- If it's worthless why don't you let me have it?
Unfortunately, if I know that you want something it becomes a seller market. If I know that someone is a collector then I can put the price of several mirrors for a scrap of printed paper torn off a letter written 50 years ago that I was about to toss in garbage.

We could also argue about the exp penalty doing its job or not, and if we conclude that it doesn't then that can also be viewed from both sides of the coin.
- If it doesn't work then why not just remove it?
- If it doesn't work then why don't we think of something that does

So in the end it boils down to 'should there be a penalty for messing up or not'. And that's a loaded question, it goes deep into hardcore existential questions of 'what is a game in the first place', and not just video game. But that's probably best left alone or we might end up like those two skeletons from Divine Divinity that start discussing finer points of necromancy and logic themselves out of existence.

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raics wrote:

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Echothesis wrote:

Limited portals already fill that role, you always have to build defenses to last long enough to accomplish the objective. That won't change if penalty goes away.

Actually, in case of new league without penalty, 6 portals can be reduced to 3-4, as an alternate penalty. It won't feel nearly as frustrating as large exp loss.

Dunno if they're up for reducing max party size to 3-4.
...

Technicalities like this can always be solved one way or another if there is a developer willpower to do it. Example:

Set the number of portals based on party member count at the moment of launching map device, be it for user's map or any other content like atlas memories or fragments. Spread the portals evenly around device, all numbers below have multiplicity with 6.

1 player: 2 portals on maps, 4 on pinnacle boss invitations
2 players: 3 portals on maps, 4 on pinnacle boss invitations
3 players: 4 portals on maps, 6 on pinnacle boss invitations
3+ players: 6 portals. De-facto playing in large party already means you can reenter map only once, or not at all.

Since all content for map device is itemized and repeatable, we can discard edge case of "wait, you forgot to invite me before opening it!". It won't be a big loss, unlucky guy can wait for next run, they are never long.

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raics wrote:

Haha, well that's the beauty of it, it can be seen from both sides.
- If it's worthless, why do you want it?
- If it's worthless why don't you let me have it?
Unfortunately, if I know that you want something it becomes a seller market. If I know that someone is a collector then I can put the price of several mirrors for a scrap of printed paper torn off a letter written 50 years ago that I was about to toss in garbage.

We could also argue about the exp penalty doing its job or not, and if we conclude that it doesn't then that can also be viewed from both sides of the coin.
- If it doesn't work then why not just remove it?
- If it doesn't work then why don't we think of something that does

So in the end it boils down to 'should there be a penalty for messing up or not'. And that's a loaded question, it goes deep into hardcore existential questions of 'what is a game in the first place', and not just video game. But that's probably best left alone or we might end up like those two skeletons from Divine Divinity that start discussing finer points of necromancy and logic themselves out of existence.

Ah but I strongly disagree with your premise here. You aren't quite looking at it from both sides, nor are you highlighting the true issue at hand...We aren't talking about whether level 100 is worthless or not, that is a somewhat separate issue. We are talking about whether the exp penalty itself is worthless or not. The role of the exp penalty (non-arguable) is to make it difficult to get to 100 and deter players from taking on content that is too difficult via punishment. It has no other function in the game. It fails on both counts, which also really isn't arguable as it has been proven across many many many years that carries exist to get players to 100 easily, and portals/loss of materials function as the deterrent to hard content.

The coin is not flipped the way you say: the coin would be flipped:
1) Is level 100 a challenge or isn't it. It isn't about "worth", its about actual in-game challenge to achieve.
2) Does the exp penalty work, or doesn't it

As such, it is NOT a question of "should there be a penalty or not". I think almost everyone agrees there SHOULD be a penalty for dying. But the penalty should NOT be exp, at least not anymore. Perhaps in the early stages of the game it functioned as a reputable barrier to level 100 and progress but after heavy heavy exp content was released like delirium and 5-ways, it ceased functioning.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Ah but I strongly disagree with your premise here. You aren't quite looking at it from both sides, nor are you highlighting the true issue at hand...We aren't talking about whether level 100 is worthless or not, that is a somewhat separate issue. We are talking about whether the exp penalty itself is worthless or not. The role of the exp penalty (non-arguable) is to make it difficult to get to 100 and deter players from taking on content that is too difficult via punishment. It has no other function in the game. It fails on both counts, which also really isn't arguable as it has been proven across many many many years that carries exist to get players to 100 easily, and portals/loss of materials function as the deterrent to hard content.

The coin is not flipped the way you say: the coin would be flipped:
1) Is level 100 a challenge or isn't it. It isn't about "worth", its about actual in-game challenge to achieve.
2) Does the exp penalty work, or doesn't it

As such, it is NOT a question of "should there be a penalty or not". I think almost everyone agrees there SHOULD be a penalty for dying. But the penalty should NOT be exp, at least not anymore. Perhaps in the early stages of the game it functioned as a reputable barrier to level 100 and progress but after heavy heavy exp content was released like delirium and 5-ways, it ceased functioning.

Dunno if I can agree with these two things, really. Maybe we were just focusing too much on high levels, but the game has a different exp penalty during campaign and endgame for a reason, and it's that less experienced players die, a lot. There's no gold or item durability, item drop bonus like in sacred 2 wouldn't mean much at that point, so the obvious thing left was experience. Maybe it isn't ideal (more than maybe), but people might think it's just the kind of game where you die a lot, there are those after all, and stopping character progress really does raise the flag of "you're doing something really, really wrong" pretty well.

And you're assuming a bit too much with the other thing, if they replaced EXP penalty with something that is truly impactful for everyone I can pretty much guarantee there would still be threads like this, they would just be named "The ??? Penalty is the worst thing in Path of Exile, remove it !!!".
Hell, maybe there would even be more, having points where the penalty doesn't exist is pretty convenient, you can take risks and try new content for a bit and then go back to the grind when you run out of those. I suspect that in GGG they might consider that a plus, not a minus, because you get that tasty ebb and flow gameplay pattern that alters the player's goals and mindset.

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Echothesis wrote:

Technicalities like this can always be solved one way or another if there is a developer willpower to do it. Example:

Set the number of portals based on party member count at the moment of launching map device, be it for user's map or any other content like atlas memories or fragments. Spread the portals evenly around device, all numbers below have multiplicity with 6.

1 player: 2 portals on maps, 4 on pinnacle boss invitations
2 players: 3 portals on maps, 4 on pinnacle boss invitations
3 players: 4 portals on maps, 6 on pinnacle boss invitations
3+ players: 6 portals. De-facto playing in large party already means you can reenter map only once, or not at all.

Since all content for map device is itemized and repeatable, we can discard edge case of "wait, you forgot to invite me before opening it!". It won't be a big loss, unlucky guy can wait for next run, they are never long.

I mean, they could, but it would be cutting off the hand to cure a finger cut, I'm pretty sure they would never do something like that if the system doesn't have serious issues.

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raics wrote:

And you're assuming a bit too much with the other thing, if they replaced EXP penalty with something that is truly impactful for everyone I can pretty much guarantee there would still be threads like this, they would just be named "The ??? Penalty is the worst thing in Path of Exile, remove it !!!".

Oh, still pretending the XP penalty is the only penalty this game currently has? Ok.

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raics wrote:

And you're assuming a bit too much with the other thing, if they replaced EXP penalty with something that is truly impactful for everyone I can pretty much guarantee there would still be threads like this, they would just be named "The ??? Penalty is the worst thing in Path of Exile, remove it !!!".
Hell, maybe there would even be more, having points where the penalty doesn't exist is pretty convenient, you can take risks and try new content for a bit and then go back to the grind when you run out of those. I suspect that in GGG they might consider that a plus, not a minus, because you get that tasty ebb and flow gameplay pattern that alters the player's goals and mindset.

Disagree. I have NOT seen threads clamoring for the removal of portal limits. I have not seen threads clamoring for the removal of opportunity cost materials being wasted (scarabs, keys, etc.). There is the odd thread either complaining about them or asking for them to be more harsh, but it is NOTHING compared to the exp penalty threads for good reason.

If what you said is true, there should be equal fury around all the OTHER ways the game punishes you for dying. Or at least noticeable fury and there isn't even that.

Then there's the point about the penalty being different in the story. That's true, but it also points to ANOTHER problem with the exp penalty: it is practically meaningless to ALL players until you get to lvl 90+ (really 95+). No matter what the % is...they could reset the entire progress to the next level and all that would mean is 20-30m max of game time. That is NOT stopping anyone's progress...it simply doesn't function that way. But the loss of portals sure does. The loss of "time" in the campaign in the form of having to retrace your steps is almost MORE punishment than the exp itself because you get it back SO quickly. The players that suffer the most from the exp penalty are frankly the MOST experienced players (lvl 90+) that end up having bad luck.

Look, I thought much the same way and used many of the same arguments to defend the exp penalty. A lot. But when I stop to REALLY think about the penalty and how it functions....I realize (and you might as well) that it serves NO purpose prior to lvl 90. I don't think people in the story even notice the exp bar goes down when they die, nor do I think players in early mapping lament the loss of 3 maps of exp after dying.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Disagree. I have NOT seen threads clamoring for the removal of portal limits. I have not seen threads clamoring for the removal of opportunity cost materials being wasted (scarabs, keys, etc.). There is the odd thread either complaining about them or asking for them to be more harsh, but it is NOTHING compared to the exp penalty threads for good reason.

If what you said is true, there should be equal fury around all the OTHER ways the game punishes you for dying. Or at least noticeable fury and there isn't even that.

Then there's the point about the penalty being different in the story. That's true, but it also points to ANOTHER problem with the exp penalty: it is practically meaningless to ALL players until you get to lvl 90+ (really 95+). No matter what the % is...they could reset the entire progress to the next level and all that would mean is 20-30m max of game time. That is NOT stopping anyone's progress...it simply doesn't function that way. But the loss of portals sure does. The loss of "time" in the campaign in the form of having to retrace your steps is almost MORE punishment than the exp itself because you get it back SO quickly. The players that suffer the most from the exp penalty are frankly the MOST experienced players (lvl 90+) that end up having bad luck.

Look, I thought much the same way and used many of the same arguments to defend the exp penalty. A lot. But when I stop to REALLY think about the penalty and how it functions....I realize (and you might as well) that it serves NO purpose prior to lvl 90. I don't think people in the story even notice the exp bar goes down when they die, nor do I think players in early mapping lament the loss of 3 maps of exp after dying.

I mean, that's kinda obvious, when you open a map it gets consumed, you can see scarabs and other materials go away too. The way it works is very clear, you use a content consumable and get a shot at that content, if you mess up it's gone and that's the way it usually works with items of that type. Hell, that's the way it works in real life too, if you bought tickets to an event and got kicked out you won't get your money back.

People understand that system well because it's common enough, it would probably be less intuitive if the device somehow spat the consumables back if you fail. There were complaints, but the only ones I saw about that with any regularity is people complaining about losing the materials on server disconnect, because that happened by no fault of their own.

With experience loss it's also a matter of perception, there isn't a clearly defined interaction of 'I bet this item on being able to do the content it offers', and the game stopping your level progress isn't that common either. Most often hitting max level is par the course as long as you keep playing. As I mentioned before there are often things tied to it in MMOs, and they use other systems to signal that you aren't doing well, or not, if they tell you you aren't doing well you might log off and not come back.

And that exp bar is always in front of your eyes, it's right there at the bottom of the screen, tantalizingly going up a bit only to brutally get slammed down again, almost as if mocking you. Still sane, exile?

A question I don't see asked enough when we get this thread every other week is, "what should the death penalty be INSTEAD?"

I'm willing to skip the preceding question, "should there be a death penalty at all?" since it sounds like everyone here is generally on the same page. So if we take it as read that there should be some form of negative consequence for failing to stay alive in challenging content, I genuinely want to know what people who think 10% of a level is too harsh would like to see instead.

Because, and I have thought about this quite a lot, a small percentage of your next unfinished level is literally the weakest penalty I am capable of imagining. No matter how many times in a row you die, your build is not losing any power, and thus you are not losing the ability to continue running similar content. You are not even losing any drops you've acquired thus far in the map, unless you happen to be running Heist.

EVERY other conceivable system would actively remove power from your build on death, which could lead death-prone players to the miserable situation of "this build USED to run T15 maps, and now it can't, I had to go back down to T12 to regain some of the power I used to have." Under the current system, it's literally impossible to go backwards; the worst-case scenario is that your build stagnates where it is level-wise until you buy some upgrades and start dying less.

Honestly I've always been shocked the penalty isn't 100% of progress to the next character level. Not just for balance reasons, but because thematically that makes a lot more sense than some arbitrary lesser percentage. After all, that's what experience points ARE, in terms of "core RPG concepts:" they are a measure of what a character has accomplished, and gaining a level is the representation of how said character has learned to be more effective by staying alive through X amount of content. The fact that you can die at ALL and still have net-positive experience in a map is pretty weak, I genuinely think the game would be better if it reset the experience bar to zero % on death.

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

A question I don't see asked enough when we get this thread every other week is, "what should the death penalty be INSTEAD?"
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If you've actually read the thread, there are no suggestions to globally remove exp penalty for everyone. Let those who want to lose "100% of progress to the next character level" do just so, and create separate league for those who liked some parts of poe, but are in no need of a second (third) job, or of joining "gitgud" cult with people contesting in who breaks this game better with dozens of millions of dps and afk bosses.

As for preventing cheesing content by throwing your corpses at enemies, limited portals can handle that just fine