The XP Penalty is the worst thing in Path of Exile, remove it !!!

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Orbaal wrote:

Having multiple sets of different balancing only multiplies the workload while the human resources in charge cant be multiplied as easily. Thats why.
This isnt helping, this would only make it more difficult.

That is true for damage balancing, I know. But adjusting the penalty to trigger only on multiple successive deaths is trivial. League could be identical to Standard otherwise, and absence of legacy items in there would be a boon too.

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Orbaal wrote:

They didnt screw up. It was a massive success, just not the way you look at it. They started out as a passion project in a garage and are now employing some 200 people as well as making the founders rich and dethroned the genre king too. In what world is that a screw up?

This is also why armchair developers like you and me should STFU and instead pay some respect.
They were far more successful than you and me would be in our wildest dreams.

I have nothing but respect for PoE developers, they did very impressive job upgrading their "garage" engine all the way to vulkan and DX12 support. This is more than many AAA titles do for their players.

It is PoE designers, that I really, really don't like :) Have already said before, I am aware of their commercial success, but it was reached in part via morally questionable means. GGG knows that with design like that, for every 1 player that stays and pays them, there will be 10 players who are bound to get nothing but frustration and wasted time. And it does not bother them at the slighest.

Usually, companies at least try to offer options for as many types of players as possible, within limits of their general target audience, here they didn't even bother to add armor and evasion calculation explanation in-game, despite newcomers keep getting deceived by that sweet 80-90% "estimated physical damage reduction" number and keep losing exp on a boss. Or by "70% chance to evade".

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spaceace7373 wrote:

xp loss removed = every player character reaches level 100 guaranteed with little effort, just some time. just kill some stuff and die constantly with no repercussions . no point in playing the game at all to level up and GGG might as well just make everyone level 100 to start. just fill in your passives and go

imagine if the xp total went down and we lost levels instead of progress on just 1 level. now that would make things interesting lmao

if GGG made it so you have to completely clear an area 100% in order to collect the xp for the kills you make and remove xp leeching... that would completely change the game. you didn't kill it so you don't get the xp for it. but that would also eliminate carries almost completely for pretty much everything except for those builds and players that can reduce monsters to 1hp. but then you would still have to attack and kill it

i just don't see any way xp penalty can be removed without drastically affecting game play

Your argument is invalid because for pros, getting to lvl100 is easy, look at ben within few days was lvl100 on a buffed up league on solo self find hardcore, to certain level of players the experience penalty is irrelevant, it only harms the causals and causes them to leave game.

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Un4seenMaji wrote:

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spaceace7373 wrote:

xp loss removed = every player character reaches level 100 guaranteed with little effort, just some time. just kill some stuff and die constantly with no repercussions . no point in playing the game at all to level up and GGG might as well just make everyone level 100 to start. just fill in your passives and go

imagine if the xp total went down and we lost levels instead of progress on just 1 level. now that would make things interesting lmao

if GGG made it so you have to completely clear an area 100% in order to collect the xp for the kills you make and remove xp leeching... that would completely change the game. you didn't kill it so you don't get the xp for it. but that would also eliminate carries almost completely for pretty much everything except for those builds and players that can reduce monsters to 1hp. but then you would still have to attack and kill it

i just don't see any way xp penalty can be removed without drastically affecting game play

Your argument is invalid because for pros, getting to lvl100 is easy, look at ben within few days was lvl100 on a buffed up league on solo self find hardcore, to certain level of players the experience penalty is irrelevant, it only harms the causals and causes them to leave game.

Casuals need to learn too play then instead of dying 10000 times why is that? Zero defenses or running stupid maps not a hard concept; It's there for you to go to POB and see why everything is hitting you hard to learn the game.

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Echothesis wrote:

That is true for damage balancing, I know. But adjusting the penalty to trigger only on multiple successive deaths is trivial.

Is it tho?

Keep in mind, they are using the exact same balancing set for SC and HC.
The SC deathpenalty is a joke compared to the HC penalty. Removing or changing the SC penalty will also impact HC indirectly.

If the SC penalty isnt severe enough, players will trivialize the game even faster and demand harder content. This happened multiple times over the years and HC got demoted from THE mode to play to some relic of the past in the process.

There have been endless discussions about the deathpenalty.
Bottom line is this: If it doesnt hurt, it might as well not exist. If does hurt, players will complain as they already do. So why change it, when it already does exactly what its supposed to do?

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Echothesis wrote:

I am aware of their commercial success, but it was reached in part via morally questionable means...

Usually, companies at least try to offer options for as many types of players as possible, within limits of their general target audience...

So what?
What if GGG defines their target audience differently from what you´d expect and if so, are they not free to do so and who are you to question their decision on what grounds?
They are making the game they want and put it out for free, so everyone can make an educated decision whether the game is worth dropping some money on it or not.
Whereas other games charge you upfront only for you to find its trash after the fact.

I dont think thats morally questionable at all, regardless of trashy tooltips.
Id rather have that and know what Im paying for than having to pay upfront and end up paying for shit.

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Coconutdoggy wrote:

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Un4seenMaji wrote:

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spaceace7373 wrote:

xp loss removed = every player character reaches level 100 guaranteed with little effort, just some time. just kill some stuff and die constantly with no repercussions . no point in playing the game at all to level up and GGG might as well just make everyone level 100 to start. just fill in your passives and go

imagine if the xp total went down and we lost levels instead of progress on just 1 level. now that would make things interesting lmao

if GGG made it so you have to completely clear an area 100% in order to collect the xp for the kills you make and remove xp leeching... that would completely change the game. you didn't kill it so you don't get the xp for it. but that would also eliminate carries almost completely for pretty much everything except for those builds and players that can reduce monsters to 1hp. but then you would still have to attack and kill it

i just don't see any way xp penalty can be removed without drastically affecting game play

Your argument is invalid because for pros, getting to lvl100 is easy, look at ben within few days was lvl100 on a buffed up league on solo self find hardcore, to certain level of players the experience penalty is irrelevant, it only harms the causals and causes them to leave game.

Casuals need to learn too play then instead of dying 10000 times why is that? Zero defenses or running stupid maps not a hard concept; It's there for you to go to POB and see why everything is hitting you hard to learn the game.

The Casuals need to learn to play then argument is also invalid, because a casual is not going to want to spend alot extra time researching or copying others, they just want to play the game have fun and experience the content. If dying is such a big consequence it can cause people to tilt that can lead to rage quits and is actually bad if game wants more success.

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Un4seenMaji wrote:

Your argument is invalid because for pros, getting to lvl100 is easy, look at ben within few days was lvl100 on a buffed up league on solo self find hardcore, to certain level of players the experience penalty is irrelevant, it only harms the causals and causes them to leave game.

It probably bears saying again, but the purpose of death penalty isn't just the penalty itself, it's indirectly giving value to defensive bonuses and abilities. Last time I checked, over 70% of the softcore league was using determination, it's a 50% reservation aura which isn't exactly nothing in your char building space, and it protects you from something that isn't even the main endgame threat.

It's kinda like having a command grab on a non-grappler in a fighting game, the damage it does by people knowing it's there is higher than the actual damage it does in an average match.

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Un4seenMaji wrote:

The Casuals need to learn to play then argument is also invalid, because a casual is not going to want to spend alot extra time researching or copying others, they just want to play the game have fun and experience the content. If dying is such a big consequence it can cause people to tilt that can lead to rage quits and is actually bad if game wants more success.

well that's the thing, we don't know that they even want more success. Tarkov isn't trying to become Call of Duty, they have their hardcore shooter niche and are comfortable there, leaving it to compete with the big hitters in casual space would be dumb.

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raics wrote:

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Un4seenMaji wrote:

Your argument is invalid because for pros, getting to lvl100 is easy, look at ben within few days was lvl100 on a buffed up league on solo self find hardcore, to certain level of players the experience penalty is irrelevant, it only harms the causals and causes them to leave game.

It probably bears saying again, but the purpose of death penalty isn't just the penalty itself, it's indirectly giving value to defensive bonuses and abilities. Last time I checked, over 70% of the softcore league was using determination, it's a 50% reservation aura which isn't exactly nothing in your char building space, and it protects you from something that isn't even the main endgame threat.

It's kinda like having a command grab on a non-grappler in a fighting game, the damage it does by people knowing it's there is higher than the actual damage it does in an average match.

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Un4seenMaji wrote:

The Casuals need to learn to play then argument is also invalid, because a casual is not going to want to spend alot extra time researching or copying others, they just want to play the game have fun and experience the content. If dying is such a big consequence it can cause people to tilt that can lead to rage quits and is actually bad if game wants more success.

well that's the thing, we don't know that they even want more success. Tarkov isn't trying to become Call of Duty, they have their hardcore shooter niche and are comfortable there, leaving it to compete with the big hitters in casual space would be dumb.

Good point, but other rpgs seemed to have done fine without death penalty, as you know it is frustrating to lose 10% experience that takes hrs to get and lose it to a instant death of some random OP mob. Or a unlucky stun or death mechanic.

Guess we will know in poe2 the direction they want to go with it, if want to increase player base they would need to remove elite style designs, that only a few can truly be part off properly.

Elite style? Tf is that no it's an incentive to improve yourself and growth of the char not that baby shit that you see in other ARPG's

Well poe2 may be abit different we will see.

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Un4seenMaji wrote:

Causals do not care to have another job, they only want to play game for fun, they care nothing about ego side of it. If ye being a elitist is what you want to be in pride, that is your choice, but many do not care enough or see any achievement in games worth more than ones own ego to put such efforts of 'work' into improving themselves.

Well that's true enough. I mentioned fighting games and they're kinda doomed to their niche because the mindset of 'willing to be a punching bag online until you learn the game' is fairly rare.

Some do have a bit of value for casuals, like having a decent amount of offline content where you go through the storyline and fight the cpu or farm skins like in MK or Soulcalibur, or just being a good party game like Smash, so they can have some fun without ever really learning the game.

There's nothing wrong with that until the said casual says "I want to go online, fight the highest rank players that have been at this for years, and win with the full power of having practiced against the cpu for two hours". Most don't say something like that because it can be pretty obvious how much you suck when compared to a good player. However, in PoE what you're seeing good players do seems pretty mundane, like something anyone could do after reading a few guides, it isn't really obvious how much effort it took, so when a casual can't do the same it looks like bad design.

In any case, the casuals will probably leave for D4 soon, and everyone will be happy, assuming bliz doesn't spill the milk somehow. We'll see how that turns out, if D4 is really casual I don't expect that much will change, but if it's a fairly meaty game we can probably expect PoE to get more hardcore, not less, so they solidify their niche.