The saddest of misguided/missed goals of PoE

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

"

Shadeless01 wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

are you asking mark and rory to make major adjustments to the culture of human society on a global scale?


i think that might be a little beyond their budget and skill set.

He has a point, as GGG puts down every discussion about trade in a "we want trade to be a social thing"

Trade is invested with bots or people who cant bother to say thank you or do whatever other communication.

Trade in this game is the worst i ever encountered in any game, there is no interaction, it's sluggish as hell by going to a fkn 3rd party website, then you need to whisper dozens of people, and all that without a fkn word said.

And GGG keeps sticking to there fucking we want it to be a social interaction thing.

no one has to go to any 3rd party site to trade, and i dont see what people saying thank you after a trade or not has to do with ggg. are they the parents who raised the 2 or 3 million individuals who log in an play every league?

what point is there? how are ggg going to fix the fact someone didnt saying thank you after a trade you make in poe2?


its comical




you are taking a ridiculous thread about someoe not saying thanks for a trade and trying to reimagine it as a thread about the mechanics of the trade system which you obviously dont like. thats not the point the guy is making, thats not what this thread is. ITT we are getting upset because someone didnt say ty after a trade and then we are trying to make out thats somehow the fault of ggg and we are expecting them to 'fix' a few million players desire to say ty after trades in poe2.

let me get this right, you don;t understand that things like thank you is part of a conversation (which some people might see like a social thing?) And that fact that GGG constantly is using the we want trade to be a social thing, so no improvements (auction house) to trading>

If you don't get that link, please, then just don;t respond to me anymore.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

Yes there's rudeness. But in the case of trade, how many trades has that guy been dealing with. How many messages did the buyer have to send before FINALLY getting a connection?

There is so much frustration and time on both ends of every trade that 99% of the time both players just want it done as fast as possible. It may not seem like a lot but even a single button press to send an automatic TY can be a TON of time when you do 10000 trades. It can also mess you up by messaging the wrong person, getting conversations that interrupt your flow of trade messages, etc.

In fact, its sometimes MORE polite to NOT say TY because thats just an extra whisper that the seller sees, along with the 5000 trade requests.

Players on both ends get a lot more vocal, polite, and thankful when you deal with big ticket trades.

Exactly this.

Trading isn't a social interaction, doesn't matter how much GGG wants it to be, it's simply a transaction. Unless there's a need for further interaction, it's avoided.

And if we're being honest, everything the devs do only reinforces that efficiency is the only thing that matters. Meta builds nerfed as they're too efficient, low drop chances that only reinforce mechanized trades, map as fast as you can without meaningless interruptions, blazing fast mechanics and not much multi player interaction unless your party is extremely organized. It's the game that they want and the only thing we can do is adapt to it.

Hell, even league start is solid proof of this. Play efficiently, incessantly, frantically or lose(the race).

"

Shadeless01 wrote:

let me get this right, you don;t understand that things like thank you is part of a conversation (which some people might see like a social thing?) And that fact that GGG constantly is using the we want trade to be a social thing, so no improvements (auction house) to trading>

If you don't get that link, please, then just don;t respond to me anymore.

1. you said the op has a point... what you have just said is not what the op is complaining about, youre using this thread to bring that up. the op doesnt have a point.

2. the social aspect isnt why they wont have an auction house, that is not the central argument they are making.

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

Yes there's rudeness. But in the case of trade, how many trades has that guy been dealing with. How many messages did the buyer have to send before FINALLY getting a connection?

There is so much frustration and time on both ends of every trade that 99% of the time both players just want it done as fast as possible. It may not seem like a lot but even a single button press to send an automatic TY can be a TON of time when you do 10000 trades. It can also mess you up by messaging the wrong person, getting conversations that interrupt your flow of trade messages, etc.

In fact, its sometimes MORE polite to NOT say TY because thats just an extra whisper that the seller sees, along with the 5000 trade requests.

Players on both ends get a lot more vocal, polite, and thankful when you deal with big ticket trades.

Exactly this.

Trading isn't a social interaction, doesn't matter how much GGG wants it to be, it's simply a transaction. Unless there's a need for further interaction, it's avoided.

And if we're being honest, everything the devs do only reinforces that efficiency is the only thing that matters. Meta builds nerfed as they're too efficient, low drop chances that only reinforce mechanized trades, map as fast as you can without meaningless interruptions, blazing fast mechanics and not much multi player interaction unless your party is extremely organized. It's the game that they want and the only thing we can do is adapt to it.

Hell, even league start is solid proof of this. Play efficiently, incessantly, frantically or lose(the race).

efficiency is inherent to a loot game with a market, and to have drops be meaningful some have to be rare. its the game they want to make because its a decent arpg with trade, these things will be true of any game that fits that description so its the game most long term players want them to make too.


its less that this is an option that theyve chosen to push on the game and more something they acknowledge and account for because its simply inherent to an arpg like this.



this is more of why trade is the way it is, yes they talk about social interactions and their ideas there have some merit to an extent but are kind of outdated really given the way the game has turned out.

but the core of their reasoning with the trade system is that trade is far too efficient a way to get items, the vast majority of players wont trade at all or will only perform a small handful of trades per league so if you make trade super efficient then the minority who trade will gain way too much power from it and it will make balancing the game even harder.

even inefficient trade like this is still 100x more efficient for getting the item you want than grinding the game, that is again just inherent to a trade environment in an arpg with this many players.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

but the core of their reasoning with the trade system is that trade is far too efficient a way to get items, the vast majority of players wont trade at all or will only perform a small handful of trades per league so if you make trade super efficient then the minority who trade will gain way too much power from it and it will make balancing the game even harder.

even inefficient trade like this is still 100x more efficient for getting the item you want than grinding the game, that is again just inherent to a trade environment in an arpg with this many players.

Making trade readily available will benefit the majority, not the minority. If anything, the minority can exploit it better the way it is now with scammers, price fixing and mispricing of the noobs. If the price is stable and reliable, exploitative strategies become a lot harder, which hurt the minorities, not the majority.

More over, the minority alredy have too much power. Vivid Vulture is a prime example. Perfect synthesis bases being made because a few tries of Vivid Vulture alone are worthless, but then minority buys the entire market cheap, exploiting the market which is far easier to exploit as it is than with AH, makes the perfects items, then the strategy is known and the prices of them sky soar, even though a few tries are still unlikely to get anywhere near what the minority achieved.
https://poe.ninja/challenge/beasts/vivid-vulture December 12, 10chaos. Today 750 chaos.

Which is why they are failing in multiple fronts. Trade is efficient(even in this ineficient state) because looting is extremely, absurdly inefficient. I've literally done 600 Uber Mavens with two specific goals in mind: Awakened Empower and Impossible Escape with Chaos Innoculation. 600 tries and it wasn't enough. I have enough to buy those two from the market 10 times over, but in 600 tries, playing without trade, it wasn't enough.

Either the game is balanced towards SSF or it's balanced towards trade. If it's the first, higher drops discourage trade. If it's trade, accurate and reliable trade is everything. As we are now, we have neither. GGG not making trade easier and reliable is a complete failure of their part that only serves to strengthen what they are supposedly fighting against. And to me that is the worst irony, bigger than the so called "Vision".

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

but the core of their reasoning with the trade system is that trade is far too efficient a way to get items, the vast majority of players wont trade at all or will only perform a small handful of trades per league so if you make trade super efficient then the minority who trade will gain way too much power from it and it will make balancing the game even harder.

even inefficient trade like this is still 100x more efficient for getting the item you want than grinding the game, that is again just inherent to a trade environment in an arpg with this many players.

Making trade readily available will benefit the majority, not the minority.

what ur maybe not appreciating is that the majority of players never trade and will never trade, and of the minority that do trade the majority of them will only make a couple of trades in a 3 month cycle. they will buy 2 or 3 items and thats it. so if you make trade easier it doesnt benefit them, it just making a minority who trade more powerful and that applies pressure to up the game balance, which will hurt the majority who will not have any benefit from ease of trade because they wont take part in it.

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

Which is why they are failing in multiple fronts. Trade is efficient(even in this ineficient state) because looting is extremely, absurdly inefficient. I've literally done 600 Uber Mavens with two specific goals in mind: Awakened Empower and Impossible Escape with Chaos Innoculation. 600 tries and it wasn't enough. I have enough to buy those two from the market 10 times over, but in 600 tries, playing without trade, it wasn't enough.

Either the game is balanced towards SSF or it's balanced towards trade. If it's the first, higher drops discourage trade. If it's trade, accurate and reliable trade is everything. As we are now, we have neither. GGG not making trade easier and reliable is a complete failure of their part that only serves to strengthen what they are supposedly fighting against. And to me that is the worst irony, bigger than the so called "Vision".

you are not supposed to be able to get everything, i think that is the aim. its not that the game is balanced around you trading for these things, the game is balanced around having items that are in the lottery jackpot rarity in order to make the potential of the item system compelling, to keep a carrot on the stick.

in d3 you just basically get everything and thats why nothing is really exciting. theres no mirror drop moment in d3.

ggg are not trying to make you trade, they recognise most people dont trade and want to maintain being able to balance the game so that it is still playable for these people.

the point of trade is because even if you dont trade the fact you could theoretically trade gives your items a much higher sense of value. it doesnt matter if u have an item worth mirroring and it doesnt matter if you will keep that mirror you find forever, finding a mirror is a lose your mind jackpot moment. you lose that if the item drop is balanced so that everyone can expect to find one like d3 or if you are not in a potential trade environment and have no real use for it.



what they are aiming for is to make items feel valuable because they recognise the pull of a loot game is the items. they want things in the game that can potentially drop for you today when you play that feel extremely precious. part of that is making sure they almost never drop, part of that is making sure if you really wanted to you could trade it to someone else who finds that item way more valuable than you do.

this is where i think their focus is, its not about you want X exact item and its either they balanced it for self found or for trade. i hear what ur saying, its not that i dont get it or that i dont think you have fair points, you do make you case. but while i cant speak for the devs i feel like ive dug deep enough into their interviews and manifestos over the years to feel i have some handle on their ideas.

my interpretation of it is that you think they failed on 2 fronts because trade is still the more efficient way to get and looting it proved impossible for you, where as i believe their view point would be that what they were trying to create was a game where you wanted that item a lot, where you felt there was this item in their game that was really valuable to you and you were willing to play the game a lot for a chance of dropping it. the fact you did 600 runs i think to them would be a confirmation that actually they succeeded in the primary goal they were designing their items and item acquisition systems around.

i think they look at the game and after 10 years vets with 15k+ hours played are all still craving the mirror drop, craving some t1 unique drops, item system still somewhat intact in a way that a game like diablo 3s item system fails to hold on to for more than 24 hours into a league start even given the self found nature of the thing. i think they see these things as a great success.





personally i have an issue with balancing the game around anti qol. when i see utilising player frustration as a means of balancing a system, were gonna intentionally make this tedious and sometimes maddening to deal with as part of our balancing strategy.... i dunno if im on board with that kind of philosophy.

its not an area i feel like i have a firm opinion on, im open to persuasion but i inherently feel there must be a better way than allowing parts of the game to feel bad to interact with. my instinct is find another way to deal with this. but im not the guy with the alternate answers there.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

what ur maybe not appreciating is that the majority of players never trade and will never trade, and of the minority that do trade the majority of them will only make a couple of trades in a 3 month cycle. they will buy 2 or 3 items and thats it.

How can you even make such assumption? Based on what? Everyone i've ever talked with always trade in some meaningful capacity.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

you are not supposed to be able to get everything, i think that is the aim.

If any dev actually said that, i'd never waste another cent on PoE. That's basically saying that no amount of effort will get what you want, and that's anti player mindset. And the minority of top players does it anyway so it's both nonsensical and useless effort.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

its not that the game is balanced around you trading for these things, the game is balanced around having items that are in the lottery jackpot rarity in order to make the potential of the item system compelling, to keep a carrot on the stick.

This basically contradicts what you've said earlier, as if i can never get the carrot, i'm wasting my time and it is better spend it in another game in which i can.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

in d3 you just basically get everything and thats why nothing is really exciting. theres no mirror drop moment in d3.

From the basic knowledge i have from D3, they have loot goblins which is what almost torn apart PoE community.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

ggg are not trying to make you trade, they recognise most people dont trade and want to maintain being able to balance the game so that it is still playable for these people.

Again, how can you assume that is true? Are you basing it on SSF or what?

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

the point of trade is because even if you dont trade the fact you could theoretically trade gives your items a much higher sense of value. it doesnt matter if u have an item worth mirroring and it doesnt matter if you will keep that mirror you find forever, finding a mirror is a lose your mind jackpot moment. you lose that if the item drop is balanced so that everyone can expect to find one like d3 or if you are not in a potential trade environment and have no real use for it.

That doesn't make any sense. Being able to trade is what literally gives value to items that you would see as useless otherwise.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

Everything else...

Then just delete trade and make it SSF, problem solved. Oh wait, SSF alredy exists... So, again, why not fix trade reliability, get rid of scammers, bots, price fixers and actually balance each game mode accordingly? If i have a car, i want it to be running in top condition, not with gas leaking, the lights broken and without a roof.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

willing to play the game a lot for a chance of dropping it. the fact you did 600 runs i think to them would be a confirmation that actually they succeeded in the primary goal they were designing their items and item acquisition systems around.

Except i'm not paying them one cent beyond what i payed when i actually enjoyed the game, which was on Ritual and Maven expansion, both which didn't made me do the same content 600 times because i needed, but because i wanted. Need and want are two very distinct things. In fact i never will support them again unless they stop regressing on crafting and needlessly decreasing drop rates. If you think that's success... Oh, and let's not forget the fact that the "removed historical bonus quantity" was mysteriously forgotten about in the patch notes until an angry mob started to complain in Reddit.

Don't get me wrong, i want to support them, but this direction, to me, is my money being wasted.

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

what ur maybe not appreciating is that the majority of players never trade and will never trade, and of the minority that do trade the majority of them will only make a couple of trades in a 3 month cycle. they will buy 2 or 3 items and thats it.

How can you even make such assumption? Based on what? Everyone i've ever talked with always trade in some meaningful capacity.

its their player data, theyve spoken about it many times in manifestos and interviews etc. they have the hard data on what people are doing. how many people are really part of the regularly trading player economy in a league? 50,000 people? we dont know, but if its 50,000 people then given the player data they have talked about that might be 2% of the people who have logged in and played the league.

if you are able to speak to someone then theyre engaging in the community systems, most people dont do that. its the kind of people who are in chat lobbies or discords or forums who are the harcore minority that also tend to be the consistent traders.


their ahrd data says that most people dont trade, a minority trade and most of the minority who trade make only a couple of trades per league. the regular trading community is a minority within a minority.

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

its not that the game is balanced around you trading for these things, the game is balanced around having items that are in the lottery jackpot rarity in order to make the potential of the item system compelling, to keep a carrot on the stick.

This basically contradicts what you've said earlier, as if i can never get the carrot, i'm wasting my time and it is better spend it in another game in which i can.

well i think the idea is that you get a lot of some carrots, a little of others and then theres the mythic carrot that nobody gets. have you ever found a mirror? if not do u expect to?

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

you are not supposed to be able to get everything, i think that is the aim.

If any dev actually said that, i'd never waste another cent on PoE. That's basically saying that no amount of effort will get what you want, and that's anti player mindset. And the minority of top players does it anyway so it's both nonsensical and useless effort.

thats a fair enough view point. im not gonna tell you youre wrong, youre perfectly entitled to feel that way.

personally i feel its a managing expectations thing. i dont expect to drop a mirror, i dont expect to drop a purple foiled mageblood, i didnt expect to drop a green foil legacy kaoms in legacy league.

theres 520,000,000 people in europe, are they all gonna win a 100,000,000 euromillions lottery jackpot in their life?

theres things you aim for, things you hope for and things that are just out there that you know are never gonna happen... but they might. that next void card u turn in could be a mirror. it gives an excitement to the game, i dont see it as anti player that for 99.99% of players it will never happen.

"

AdRonZh3Ro wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

in d3 you just basically get everything and thats why nothing is really exciting. theres no mirror drop moment in d3.

From the basic knowledge i have from D3, they have loot goblins which is what almost torn apart PoE community.

its not the same tho, their loot goblins are about as meaningful as a white standard strongbox in poe.





i think there always has to be something beyond in an arpg, whatever the best thing you found was, it has to be possible to find something a little better. you lose something when you dont have that next level that might be in that next chest you pop. the only way to make sure that lasts forever is for there to be things u will never find.

some things u find ever minute, every hour, once a day, once a month, once a year, once in 5 years, in 10, 20, 40... ok now ur never gonna find it. except someone actually will, and it could be you. and whats great is that theres also a 1 in 80 years item so even then youre not done, the promised land is still out there.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

you lose something when you dont have that next level that might be in that next chest you pop

And that's the gamblers predicament. 90% of gamblers stop before they hit big. What most fail to mention is that they lose everything before winning.

Time is finite, everyone's, without exception. Doesn't matter how much the devs want to think otherwise. I won't bow to some insipid Vision of a bald man and his sudden backpedaling. It was fun while it lasted and i have no regrets.

Also, just pointing out, the best items are made, not found.

trade is an annoyance.
i have to pm 1001 people before getting a response (depending on item)

i usually try and at least say t4t on "area" chat as the next buyer lined up could be inviting me to party already

i actually dont really care too much if a person says thanks or not.

i m really pro -zero interaction trade.

sanctum is the most engaging league mechanic that i love, and it highlights how badly the game needs a zero interaction trade mechanic.

EDIT: i must also say, interaction must also exist. both must exist alongside each other giving alternatives to players.

i usually nego expensive items.