melee weapons VASTLY harder to craft than casters......

Anyone that has crafted a +1 +1 sceptre, then aisling a prefix would laugh at the people saying caster weapons are hard to make. Me being that person. Phys weapons are hands down the hardest thing to craft an endgame item. The fractured base for melee phys weapons costs probably 10x over what it takes to get prefixes on a sceptre.

Also while were talking about fortify. Who else is mad that they stealth nerfed melee and basically took away 1 skill point from any melee wanting fortify from the tree.

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Xzorn wrote:

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zaarakiekenpachi wrote:

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Xzorn wrote:

Base melee weapons have 32 different affixes while wands have 56.
You're over here counting Tiers, ignoring many of those affixes are bricks for wands.


I've been a 2/3 melee player since this game started. There's no difference between high end melee and caster items except caster has been more expensive since no one plays melee.
You're talking about 179% Phys so I'm not sure we're even talking to same bracket.

I've been on melee strike past 3 leagues. Not because of itemization but because of game design. They took away nearly every advantage melee had to survive giving nothing in return.

I'm not dealing with this trash Fortify design or boring Shield / Abysus situation anymore. Esp when my Deadeye comically had 21-51% Less damage taken and wasn't reliant on damage output.

Frost Armor + Wind Ward putting Fortify to shame. Such stupid design.

"over counting tiers" what a convenient way of trying to make an invalid point.

the weight to get t1 in % phys is half the weight to get it on +1 to all spell gems. the weightto get t2 is equal. and there are TWO mods like that for a melee physical weapon.

no one is counting mods it's in your head. i am counting weights and probability. and it is astonishing that some people would argue against something LITERALLY written and can be googled up in 3 seconds.

Because you're using it in a very bias manner.

You can roll Cruel T3 and Conq T3 both at 100 weight for 210-220% Physical damage while +1 all Spells is 50. I don't know why you're so up on the 179% roll Tier 1 when melee 200%+ double rolls which you don't need T1 for is what you want.

You're also ignoring the massive gap rolled Wand Suffixes have Vs Crafted.

Melee Suffix:

Suffix Roll Vs Craft
Crit Chance: 38 Vs 27
Crit Multi: 38 Vs 28
Atk Speed: 19 Vs 13

Wand Suffix

Suffix Roll Vs Craft
Crit for Spells: 109 Vs 69
Crit Multi: 38 Vs 28
Cast Speed: 32 Vs 21

You lose a lot more potential stats trying to metacraft a wand over a melee weapon.

Perfect Melee roll is 50 + 25 + 200 + 1000 + 1000 + 500 = 2,775
Perfect Wand roll is 50 + 230 + 45 + 1000 + 1000 + 250 = 2,575

A perfect roll wand has less probability than perfect roll weapon. The only difference here is that wands can be "a little" more flexible. You keep putting emphasis on +1 / +1 when Cast Speed can be far more potent than +1, which is something you can't craft at high value. At the same time Melee can go Rainbow damage if it fits your build making things far easier.

So again, not much difference on high end itemization.
The difference is how dependent melee is on the stats of a weapon and even further, much of this is just the sorry state of the game making Crit melee the only option.

let me teach you some basic poe stuff then.

1- t3 t3 weapon sucks. and in most cases if you don't get top tier flat with t3 t3 the cost of going further with the weapon is much higher than what the weapon is worth. so y

2- you might not have realized but even t3 t3 have lower weighting than most of spell casters prefixes "weight of 100 for t3 vs wieght of 250 for +1 specific type" so saying "you can roll t3 rather than t1" tough luck t3 is still harder to roll than casters +1 +1

3- you are comparing suffixes as if they are equally important, melee weapon suffixes can decide the weapon value in a much steeper manner than casters.

why ? BECAUSE IT AFFECTS THE BASE crit. and global critical strike chance sources as well as attack speed are very limited. you make it sound like 100% spell crit on a wand is as important as 30% crit on a melee weapon or something.

so lets math it out as a first grader would

lets say my weapon has 25% critical strike chance and the base is 5% that would ad 1.25% BASE critical strike chance. if we have 500% melee crit chance from the tree and power charges and flask that would add up to 1.25% multiplied by 6 which is 7.5%
if the roll is at 35% for example that would add 0.5% multiplied by 6 and then that would another 3% crit.

so the total is 10% and the difference between lowest roll OF THE SAME TIER and highest roll is 3%

and the scarcity of the critical strike chance is one of the melee issues currently in the game.

on the other hand what does 100% spell crit give you assuming you are not using brittle? if your spell base crit 6% 100% spell crit is 6%....... 70% is 4.2% crit so the difference between the highest and lowest roll for spell caster's suffix is actually 1.8% which.

in other words a melee weapon without crit roll is unusable for a crit build unless you invest in brittle or play slayer or invest in crit base in many other sources.

attack speed is even more punishing.

here is the funny part though, because melees don't get a lot of % crit from other sources. brittle is actually MUCH LESS effective for melee than for casters.

base crit for brittle is 6% after the nerf

if your wand and shield gives you 200% spell crit that would be a total of gained ONLY from your wand and shield + brittle.

on the other hand as melees 6% brittle is you now.... 6%.
not only you are getting most of your power from the +1+1, and not only you need to care less about the sufixes. but also if you want to scale brittle you can scale it better because of the many sources for global spell crit. while melees need to get like 20% base if not more to cap crit.

one last thing, multi strike is important if we want to get high dps. and multistrike punishes non-crit capped char hard. so we also HAVE TO CAP CRIT in many case.

it is not like i invented a melee problem from nothingness. the whole community is talking about it. i am not asking them to nerf casters i am asking the them to fix melee here.

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Xzorn wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

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Melee Suffix:

Suffix Roll Vs Craft
Crit Chance: 38 Vs 27
Crit Multi: 38 Vs 28
Atk Speed: 19 Vs 13

that is for bows?

because for melee weapons you can get 30% attack speed via essence

crit chance is meaningless, same as multi. you can get it from other sources

what matters is 4 affixes: %phys, %hybrid, +flat, %aspd

these 4 are local and multiply on eachother. crit you can boost via Slayer, AssMark, chest and plethora of other sources. these 4 base stats cannot be augmented in any way so focus on them as they make 95% of the weapon's power

Those stats are less impactful but my original response said there's little difference in itemization when it comes to high end rolls. OP replied with a simple "Nope".

I was just using drop rolls and craft bench as to not over complicate comparisons, esp when the subject is weighted results. I'm aware how melee multiplicative interaction works. Though talking about bows it's curious OP doesn't have the same complaint. Bow rolls are all local as well.

I suppose too many players are doing CoC to care.
The only perk that comes to mind over melee is projectile speed can directly relate to DPS.

yup my response is a nope because, you could look it up in 1 min.

WEIGHTINGS and mod types and the possibility to block and force mods is crafting.

so when you look at the those 2 factors "weighting and tag for the mod"

a simple nope should be enough, lets simply say it this way

t1 for phys mods is twice as hard to roll as t1 for +1 spells
t2 for phys mod is same weight as for spells
t3 for phys mods is a little easier, but it is still weighting of 100
t4 is 200 which is the SAME WEIGHT as +1 specific spells.

i am not invented this stuf, look it up.

so if we use craft of exile, the odds of getting double t4 phys on a weapon using a simple method like jagged fossil "which btw is still a useless weapon because it has no flat phys" and even if it has flat phys it is still usless cuz it's t4.

the problem with this is that there is no "workaround" because of the gags. your only option is to get a fractured weapon "for example" then spam.

on the other hand, spell casters can easily craft a +1 +1 with more deterministic methods.

so let me clarify what i am saying here. the only way to craft a melee weapon is the expensive way. there is no deterministic approach. if you were to craft your wands by spamming caster fossils hoping to get +1 +1 and spell damage on a rare wand you would understand the problem.

the difference between having 200% in comparison to 250% on a basic level is you know....25% more

for a class that is forced to invest more in defense, mobility, utility and all that shit i'd say 25% more is a little big.

.

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zaarakiekenpachi wrote:

let me teach you some basic poe stuff then.

so lets math it out as a first grader would

lets say my weapon has 25% critical strike chance and the base is 5% that would ad 1.25% BASE critical strike chance. if we have 500% melee crit chance from the tree and power charges and flask that would add up to 1.25% multiplied by 6 which is 7.5%
if the roll is at 35% for example that would add 0.5% multiplied by 6 and then that would another 3% crit.

so the total is 10% and the difference between lowest roll OF THE SAME TIER and highest roll is 3%

Sorry, I couldn't get past the teaching me first grade math and failing part.

For some reason you picked the lowest base Crit you could. Then you added 25% for 6.25% base and added 500% Crit Chance which would be 37.5% total. Changing this awful base to a higher roll of 38% grants 3.9% additional Crit. Actually crafting a good main hand would be 45.5%.

Every Crit melee I've ever made had 80%+ Crit before debuffs.

GGG doesn't want left side to Crit so you have to stretch. Just like they don't want upper right side to melee anymore. It's not an itemization problems it's bad passive design among many other things.

Some people totally miss the point and use the wrong math to calculate.

For wands, you just need to use alterations to roll out +1 spell and fracture it. If this step succeed, the remainder is super easy!

For melee weapon, even if you finish the first step, the remaining steps are still a nightmare.

The prices of both items had told you the truth, why some people still stubbornly defend this?

I don't know why we're debating a near dead playstyle anyways.

It doesn't matter how good weapons are or aren't. The game isn't designed for melee. Like I said in my first post. I went on melee strike 3 leagues ago and I'm not going back till they fix it.

Don't enjoy ranged much and no longer enjoy melee = Don't enjoy PoE.
That's why I literally played 8 days this league.

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Xzorn wrote:

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zaarakiekenpachi wrote:

let me teach you some basic poe stuff then.

so lets math it out as a first grader would

lets say my weapon has 25% critical strike chance and the base is 5% that would ad 1.25% BASE critical strike chance. if we have 500% melee crit chance from the tree and power charges and flask that would add up to 1.25% multiplied by 6 which is 7.5%
if the roll is at 35% for example that would add 0.5% multiplied by 6 and then that would another 3% crit.

so the total is 10% and the difference between lowest roll OF THE SAME TIER and highest roll is 3%

Sorry, I couldn't get past the teaching me first grade math and failing part.

For some reason you picked the lowest base Crit you could. Then you added 25% for 6.25% base and added 500% Crit Chance which would be 37.5% total. Changing this awful base to a higher roll of 38% grants 3.9% additional Crit. Actually crafting a good main hand would be 45.5%.

Every Crit melee I've ever made had 80%+ Crit before debuffs.

GGG doesn't want left side to Crit so you have to stretch. Just like they don't want upper right side to melee anymore. It's not an itemization problems it's bad passive design among many other things.

you don't see the problem do you ? i used the lowest melee weapon crit in the example and yet it was still a bigger deal than spell crit.

that's literally the point >> the gap gets bigger if we use a better crit base weapon. which only shows how is the difference between 25% and 35% on weapon suffix a bigger deal than the 69-100% spell crit.

also what the heck is this comparison, "ggg don't want left side to crit just like they don't want top side to melee"

melee and crit are like comparing banana to orange. and the same way left side has resolute techniques top side has elemental overload and right side has precise technique. every single part of the tree is introducing a "no crit play style"

but then again that's exactly the problem. you have access to many play stylees in the top side of the tree. and the easiest access to crit which is easiest way to get damage.

melees weakness are ramping up, they are not ONLY weapons, only ancestral only totems dependency, only tree or only positioning. it's everything combined of what i mentioned and what i did not mentioned. and the longer ggg ignores it the more it will rap up which honestly does not sound good for poe2 either. if you can't fix the problems in years how can anyone expect you to fix it by the time poe2 lands.

either way, the hope is that they start making small moves. they don't have to fix everything at once nor fix everything before poe 2.

they just have to start...

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smtad wrote:

Some people totally miss the point and use the wrong math to calculate.

For wands, you just need to use alterations to roll out +1 spell and fracture it. If this step succeed, the remainder is super easy!

For melee weapon, even if you finish the first step, the remaining steps are still a nightmare.

The prices of both items had told you the truth, why some people still stubbornly defend this?

honestly i am just doing simple literlaly primary school math to explain that the weightings problem and the non-deterministic methods to craft a melee physical weapon is as clear as day.

that's saying if you can find a problem just looking at things for 5 - 10 seconds then there is a BIG PROBLEM.