Big Ducks killing it on whats wrong with the game and how to fix it.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

Why is LS one of the last "melee" skills still using popular use? Because its not melee in the truest sense with a ranged component.

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Chickenwink wrote:

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

Why is LS one of the last "melee" skills still using popular use? Because its not melee in the truest sense with a ranged component.

You have no data but your own opinion to back that up.


If anything you have data against that straight from ninja:

For context more people play cyclone, non cast on crit, than people that play my build, SRS, on the leaderboards.

More people play flicker strike than my build on the leaderboards.

Boneshatter is played

Like cmon.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

I can distinctly remember walking into a simulacrum and dying instantly upon moving and having the repeated experience until the portals were gone.

That's not to say the same experience couldn't be had on ranged, but there is nothing to dodge. Melee didn't fall out of favor because people were failing to dodge, but because of the things that can't be dodged.

Why is LS one of the last "melee" skills still using popular use? Because its not melee in the truest sense with a ranged component.

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auspexa wrote:

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

I can distinctly remember walking into a simulacrum and dying instantly upon moving and having the repeated experience until the portals were gone.

That's not to say the same experience couldn't be had on ranged, but there is nothing to dodge. Melee didn't fall out of favor because people were failing to dodge, but because of the things that can't be dodged.

Why is LS one of the last "melee" skills still using popular use? Because its not melee in the truest sense with a ranged component.

Surviving in simulacrum has nothing to do with being melee or ranged though, ranged doesn't really have any advantage over melee in simulacrum. I did multiple deathless wave 30 sims this league on a nonmeta scion build and I was able to do it only because I had 60% chaos res, 100% suppress, 50k evasion and 50k armour with overleech and vaal pact. Simulacrum is one of the few places in the game where your dps doesn't matter much and your defenses matter more. And melee obviously have access to much more defensive layers than ranged, such as fortify and elusive.

LS is popular because it has double hit interaction and good clear speed, but the thing that makes it viable isn't those, it's nightblade. If LS gets nerfed and nightblade isn't touched, you'll see that people will play stuff like molten strike, frost blades and wild strike instead, on the exact same setup. But I expect GGG to nerf nightblade, LS and champion all at the same time and completely kill the build, as they've always done

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

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auspexa wrote:

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

I can distinctly remember walking into a simulacrum and dying instantly upon moving and having the repeated experience until the portals were gone.

That's not to say the same experience couldn't be had on ranged, but there is nothing to dodge. Melee didn't fall out of favor because people were failing to dodge, but because of the things that can't be dodged.

Why is LS one of the last "melee" skills still using popular use? Because its not melee in the truest sense with a ranged component.

Surviving in simulacrum has nothing to do with being melee or ranged though, ranged doesn't really have any advantage over melee in simulacrum. I did multiple deathless wave 30 sims this league on a nonmeta scion build and I was able to do it only because I had 60% chaos res, 100% suppress, 50k evasion and 50k armour with overleech and vaal pact. Simulacrum is one of the few places in the game where your dps doesn't matter much and your defenses matter more. And melee obviously have access to much more defensive layers than ranged, such as fortify and elusive.

LS is popular because it has double hit interaction and good clear speed, but the thing that makes it viable isn't those, it's nightblade. If LS gets nerfed and nightblade isn't touched, you'll see that people will play stuff like molten strike, frost blades and wild strike instead, on the exact same setup. But I expect GGG to nerf nightblade, LS and champion all at the same time and completely kill the build, as they've always done

Access to fortify and elusive isn't restricted to melee, just more accessible.

100% supress 50k evasion AND 50k armor should already be a red flag.

You're right that nightblade is very likely next on the chopping block, but its ranged aspect makes it a lot more favorable to other "melee" options.

Speaking of killing builds, that's another part of that lacking diversity. Of every build for every league I was active in, I think maybe 2 can be altered to be currently playable - the rest were either nerfed out of existence or need so many alterations it doesn't make sense to call it the same.

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TemjinGold wrote:

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koskesh539 wrote:

You have to be trolling right? The weapon alone is close to not recreatable. That Amulet and those Gloves most definitely are expensive as hell too. The suffixes alone on those gloves cost you a fortune. The body also doesn´t seem cheap. I haven´t checked but those forbidden jewels probably cost a liver too.
So, No, your build is the opposite of cheap.

BTW, it´s not hard to pay for level 98.

Err... what?

Weapon - I literally paid 3 divines for it as is. They aren't even perfect tiers or anything. And only +1. If you think a weapon like this is so omg one of a kind, I'm not sure what to tell you here.

Amulet - This was 100c when I bought it. It's a lake product that the guy was selling for days before I bought it. The downsides probably kept people from buying it.

Gloves - I bought it with just the 3 suffixes, which is not expensive at all (paid less than 1 divine for the base) and finished it myself (not hard at all).

Chest - I bought it unlinked for 3 divines very early league. Paid to link it myself. For quite a while after, there were several similar chests for at most 10 divines + what it costs to link. You think this chest would be hella expensive and it SHOULD be. But almost NO ONE is playing it, that's why I can get it for next to nothing.

Forbidden Jewels - I bought these when they were 1 divine each. They were at that price for quite a bit before magically shooting up in price for some reason (not sure what build started using them). I actually missed the absolute bottom (was watching them all league) because one of the two hit 80c this one day. I got greedy and that price didn't last.

The entire build literally cost me less than 40 divines to put together. Now if you consider that crazy expensive, I can't argue there. But I consider it cheap because I actually carried uber kills with this build.

And yes, you can pay for L98. A lot of people can. I play totem builds a ton because I like the playstyle and have gotten to the point where I rarely get hit with this kind of build specifically precisely because I don't need to be "there" to do the damage. That's why I don't need defenses. I doubt you'll believe me when I said I didn't pay to level because clearly, to you, anyone who can make a build like this work must've. So if believing that makes you feel better about yourself, go ahead knock yourself out.

I'm not posting my build to brag, far from it because if it gains too much publicity, the stuff for this kind of build won't be cheap anymore in future leagues. I saw how much publicity mathil gave shockwave totem recently. That build has a fraction of the power that mine does at higher cost. I'm posting it because it's an example of how knowing how to make a build that plays to the strengths of your playstyle can allow you to make something really strong (because you don't need to invest in aspects that are irrelevant to you) for very little without needing to copy anyone's build.

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auspexa wrote:

"build diversity has taken a nosedive" he says.

the build diversity this league has is one of the best in the recent years, someone tell this dude to stop overdosing on crack. I killed multiple ubers this league on explosive concoction scion and lightning trap elementalist, both of which are simply nonexistent on poe.ninja

I've been playing this game since synthesis and it's the same discussion EVERY SINGLE LEAGUE. "no build diversity, only 3 builds in poe.ninja, omg melee dead". Melee is fine, people are just too stupid to dodge things so they perform better on ranged builds and incorrectly assume that it's the archetype's fault. No dumbass, you can't expect to hold right click to kill everything in the game, that's the issue. Melee is harder to play in almost all games, nothing new to see here.

There are literally hundreds of melee builds on poe.ninja who seem to be doing extremely well. And yes, I'm talking about real melee skills, not op shit like LS. There are some underpowered melee skills, I would agree with that but it doesn't mean that melee sucks in general.

What the fuck do these ppl want anyway? 1% representation for 100 different skills?

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auspexa wrote:

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i think ive made something like 12 chars and half of them were not using some overpowered mechanic or skill felt really, really teribad.

you can't come up with your own build, because it doesn't work when you do, so you're just copying meta builds to be able to do high tier content. exactly what I've been saying throughout the thread. your response proved the point I was trying to make in the thread, so thank you.

a skill could be extremely broken but if an average joe has no point of reference to be able to copy the build, he'll try to make his own variant with it and miserably fail, then assume that the skill is just dogshit. this is not the case and we've seen that this is not the case literally hundreds of times.

poe is too complicated, and an average gamer is too dumb. so when you combine these two, it's only natural that most people are just copying others.

and by the way, you have, boneshatter jugg, doryanis prototype LS champ, TS deadeye, shield crush slayer with vigilance and you claim that you're not a meta slave? please don't make a fool of yourself

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koskesh539 wrote:

Unfortunately you seem to see me as your regular 2IQ shit talker. The post you made now make things a lot clearer, that were not clear before.
Someone that has played Totems a lot has a deeper understanding of the build to pull of what you described. The number one issue, in my opinion, as of why people fail builds and declare them as bad is because they don´t know how to behave and how to build properly through each individual stage of the build.
That is why some people fail builds duplicated from good build guides. This knowledge that you yourself admitted you had, that information, that you do have this knowledge was missing in your previous post. As mentioned above it makes sense for you to succeed given your experience on said build.
I got the same kind of knowledge for CoC, it´s common for me to see people complain that CoC is expensive and shit because of obvious reasons just to find out they play the low life shit version of it that´s entry cost is pretty high with low performance.


In all these discussions about build diversity the main issue is ALWAYS forgotten: -> Build/Mechanic knowledge.
That makes or breaks a leagues Build diversity. It´s fairly simple. Before MOST PLAYERS had to invest into defences a lot of builds have been played. Why? Because it was relatively easy to build a functional character. Now we do have to invest in both offense and defence and see there, a big part of the player base struggles.

And please don´t even come up with ninja builds. Half of them are carried to where they are via some sort of rota and we literally have no idea how these builds perform.

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TemjinGold wrote:

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koskesh539 wrote:

Unfortunately you seem to see me as your regular 2IQ shit talker. The post you made now make things a lot clearer, that were not clear before.
Someone that has played Totems a lot has a deeper understanding of the build to pull of what you described. The number one issue, in my opinion, as of why people fail builds and declare them as bad is because they don´t know how to behave and how to build properly through each individual stage of the build.
That is why some people fail builds duplicated from good build guides. This knowledge that you yourself admitted you had, that information, that you do have this knowledge was missing in your previous post. As mentioned above it makes sense for you to succeed given your experience on said build.
I got the same kind of knowledge for CoC, it´s common for me to see people complain that CoC is expensive and shit because of obvious reasons just to find out they play the low life shit version of it that´s entry cost is pretty high with low performance.


In all these discussions about build diversity the main issue is ALWAYS forgotten: -> Build/Mechanic knowledge.
That makes or breaks a leagues Build diversity. It´s fairly simple. Before MOST PLAYERS had to invest into defences a lot of builds have been played. Why? Because it was relatively easy to build a functional character. Now we do have to invest in both offense and defence and see there, a big part of the player base struggles.

And please don´t even come up with ninja builds. Half of them are carried to where they are via some sort of rota and we literally have no idea how these builds perform.

Not unfortunate and no disrespect intended. If I wasn't clear that I had a ton of knowledge behind it from saying I made a build that no one else plays and could accomplish X on the cheap, then that's on me. I should have been more clear.

The whole point of what I was trying to say revolved around this. But the point I was trying to disprove was that even non-meta builds all needed to use the same thing (which was alluded to in the post I quoted). I shared my build as an example of something that can succeed without the "mandatory" grace/determ/defiance banner/spell suppression/aegis aurora/etc. My impression was that everyone complaining in this thread was too fixated on most of those pieces being mandatory to ANY successful build (which would be a HUGE diversity killer if every build no matter what needed to be a champion w/ those auras and those items to work).