Big Ducks killing it on whats wrong with the game and how to fix it.

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

A stickman can't kill everything on HC pre ubers, its fine on SC because all a skill being underpowered does is raise the threshold you have to gear or outplay it and you can always cut life.

That gradient for gearing/outskill/cutting is exactly where the diversity debate rages though, you think its fine because your willing to do any or all.

Most aren't, and if you limit yourself on SSF or HC you can't either.

Its like this, make me a pestilent strike build for HC that is viable you are going to struggle, really struggle. Now make me one for Poison Concoction you really won't struggle at all.

This is because Pconc is simply a superior skill there is no other way to write it.

Your argument is they can both do everything so its fine, the argument of the non streamer slaves is that the work required to make pestilent strike match up to a better skill makes it not viable.

The viability list is what defines diversity for most of us, not the fact you can kill Ubers with chainhook and while viability changes from case to case if you have your own metric more builds will have fallen out of that list than have been added back in.

That's all i've got to say about it, while I disagree with you at least you are playing fruity shit its rare to get someone on your side of this particular discussion that isn't just playing meta shit like everyone else so respect there.

It's true, some skills take more effort, or more gear, or more skill to make it work compared to its counterparts. But this is not a negative thing for the sake of diversity.

Someone who has more time to play can opt to play a build that takes good gear to shine, like flicker strike or divine ire.

Someone who's good at boss fights and stuff can afford to play a build that takes more skill, like most summoner builds that need to press 10 buttons every fight.

This in itself creates diversity as well. If every build was equal in power, everyone would just play simple shit that take no skill or gameplay like wardloop, rf, autobombers etc.

Pestilent strike as per your example, can work as long as you build it around nightblade and perfect agony, and would probably be stronger than pconc in endgame with good gear. It would most likely feel worse to play but that's something else to consider.

I agree with most of what you said but the thing that makes no sense is that we have the very same discussion every single league and there's no way to change it. Regardless of the diversity, people keep complaining about it, while playing a meta build themselves and not realizing that they're part of the problem. Because as I said earlier, most poe players will never be able to come up with a strong build on their own, and that's perfectly normal because the game is too complicated for people who play for a few hours per day. So why bother trying to create something entirely new instead of copying stuff which is already proven to work? With this in mind, there'll never be true build diversity in the game where every skill is usable at the highest level

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

auspexa you walk the walk but you shouldn't just tell people to fuck off that don't agree with you :p

You telling me you wouldn't prefer more underpowered skills to be better? That is basically all it means.

You've always been able to gear past deficiencies in PoE as gear is where a majority of power is at but that doesn't mean diversity is the best ever it just means you know how to work around it which you clearly do.

Also explosive concoction not even close to as bad as melee come on, massive base damage and free extra scaler from overlap isn't that bad at all. Its good enough that I played it on HC as some nutty mom hiero hybrid and killed everything (pre ubers) that just makes it a sleeper skill rather than straight bad.

I've played some top tier weird shit in my time which is how I know diversity is down, I have to work harder or take more risks to achieve the same things that's all it means.

Thank you for injecting some sane thoughts into the discussion. I was just about to give up on this thread as just mostly thinly masked personal insults being thrown around then I ran into your excellent post.

"

auspexa wrote:

"build diversity has taken a nosedive" he says.

the build diversity this league has is one of the best in the recent years, someone tell this dude to stop overdosing on crack. I killed multiple ubers this league on explosive concoction scion and lightning trap elementalist, both of which are simply nonexistent on poe.ninja

I've been playing this game since synthesis and it's the same discussion EVERY SINGLE LEAGUE. "no build diversity, only 3 builds in poe.ninja, omg melee dead". Melee is fine, people are just too stupid to dodge things so they perform better on ranged builds and incorrectly assume that it's the archetype's fault. No dumbass, you can't expect to hold right click to kill everything in the game, that's the issue. Melee is harder to play in almost all games, nothing new to see here.

There are literally hundreds of melee builds on poe.ninja who seem to be doing extremely well. And yes, I'm talking about real melee skills, not op shit like LS. There are some underpowered melee skills, I would agree with that but it doesn't mean that melee sucks in general.

What the fuck do these ppl want anyway? 1% representation for 100 different skills?

what are you even talking about?

"

feral_nature wrote:

"

auspexa wrote:

"build diversity has taken a nosedive" he says.

the build diversity this league has is one of the best in the recent years, someone tell this dude to stop overdosing on crack. I killed multiple ubers this league on explosive concoction scion and lightning trap elementalist, both of which are simply nonexistent on poe.ninja

I've been playing this game since synthesis and it's the same discussion EVERY SINGLE LEAGUE. "no build diversity, only 3 builds in poe.ninja, omg melee dead". Melee is fine, people are just too stupid to dodge things so they perform better on ranged builds and incorrectly assume that it's the archetype's fault. No dumbass, you can't expect to hold right click to kill everything in the game, that's the issue. Melee is harder to play in almost all games, nothing new to see here.

There are literally hundreds of melee builds on poe.ninja who seem to be doing extremely well. And yes, I'm talking about real melee skills, not op shit like LS. There are some underpowered melee skills, I would agree with that but it doesn't mean that melee sucks in general.

What the fuck do these ppl want anyway? 1% representation for 100 different skills?

what are you even talking about?

every single character you have in this league is using a meta build, what are you even doing in this thread?

BigDucks mentions the one thing i don´t like atm.

And that is, that every player has acces to uber-bosses at no additional cost.

That means, as he points out as well, the price of invitations/fragments is determined by how much you can get out of killing the boss in his uberform.

that means further, if you can´t do ubers, you loose currency when you run regular bosses insted of selling your invitations/fragments.

just to be clear, i have no problem at all with the fact, that i can´t kill certain uber-bosses in a league.

for me this is sad, because for example during echos of the atlas i fought maven many many times and had fun with it. this league i never did that; what i did was buying one carry for uber-maven for the league-challenge.

so GGG please think about it. :)

"

auspexa wrote:

"

feral_nature wrote:

"

auspexa wrote:

"build diversity has taken a nosedive" he says.

the build diversity this league has is one of the best in the recent years, someone tell this dude to stop overdosing on crack. I killed multiple ubers this league on explosive concoction scion and lightning trap elementalist, both of which are simply nonexistent on poe.ninja

I've been playing this game since synthesis and it's the same discussion EVERY SINGLE LEAGUE. "no build diversity, only 3 builds in poe.ninja, omg melee dead". Melee is fine, people are just too stupid to dodge things so they perform better on ranged builds and incorrectly assume that it's the archetype's fault. No dumbass, you can't expect to hold right click to kill everything in the game, that's the issue. Melee is harder to play in almost all games, nothing new to see here.

There are literally hundreds of melee builds on poe.ninja who seem to be doing extremely well. And yes, I'm talking about real melee skills, not op shit like LS. There are some underpowered melee skills, I would agree with that but it doesn't mean that melee sucks in general.

What the fuck do these ppl want anyway? 1% representation for 100 different skills?

what are you even talking about?

every single character you have in this league is using a meta build, what are you even doing in this thread?

lol what? because i had 2 chars with doryani on a league with reflected jewelry makes me meta slave?

have one slayer with emperors vigilance and dreamfeather but thats just common sense and it was my second char long before it possibly became sort of meta. unique shield is almost mirror tier worthy in term of stats so again it makes sense to try out some shield crush or shield throw char with it.(had sst char too)

got jugg with with kaoms gloves but is that meta or just common sense to stack life regen due to juggs ascendancy?

did champion with spectral helix and then reave which both felt terrible and remade it into doryani with 2 dreamfeathers since i got mageblood. its simply too good to pass on once you have mageblood.

only semi meta char i made was a doryani raider with dreamfeather, again but it felt super squishy so i kinda ditch it for the champion version.

and for last i have a tornado shot deadeye just to check loot goblins and it feels terrible as gameplay and as an idea.

overall i guess you can say there is some meta stuff in some of my chars, but its a simple common sense on one hand and path of least resistance on the other. its like saying there is some great pyramid conspiracy since those structures are found all over the world when the fact is the pyramid structure is a simple engineering solution to building tall... at least in the time period all that structures were built. it is also worth to note that the game itself forces you to using specific mechanics and skills if you want to do any high tier content at all. i think ive made something like 12 chars and half of them were not using some overpowered mechanic or skill felt really, really teribad.

yet still i dont understand what has my characters being meta or not has to do with you not knowing what youre talking about?

"

i think ive made something like 12 chars and half of them were not using some overpowered mechanic or skill felt really, really teribad.

you can't come up with your own build, because it doesn't work when you do, so you're just copying meta builds to be able to do high tier content. exactly what I've been saying throughout the thread. your response proved the point I was trying to make in the thread, so thank you.

a skill could be extremely broken but if an average joe has no point of reference to be able to copy the build, he'll try to make his own variant with it and miserably fail, then assume that the skill is just dogshit. this is not the case and we've seen that this is not the case literally hundreds of times.

poe is too complicated, and an average gamer is too dumb. so when you combine these two, it's only natural that most people are just copying others.

and by the way, you have, boneshatter jugg, doryanis prototype LS champ, TS deadeye, shield crush slayer with vigilance and you claim that you're not a meta slave? please don't make a fool of yourself

"

auspexa wrote:

"

i think ive made something like 12 chars and half of them were not using some overpowered mechanic or skill felt really, really teribad.

you can't come up with your own build, because it doesn't work when you do, so you're just copying meta builds to be able to do high tier content. exactly what I've been saying throughout the thread. your response proved the point I was trying to make in the thread, so thank you.

a skill could be extremely broken but if an average joe has no point of reference to be able to copy the build, he'll try to make his own variant with it and miserably fail, then assume that the skill is just dogshit. this is not the case and we've seen that this is not the case literally hundreds of times.

poe is too complicated, and an average gamer is too dumb. so when you combine these two, it's only natural that most people are just copying others.

and by the way, you have, boneshatter jugg, doryanis prototype LS champ, TS deadeye, shield crush slayer with vigilance and you claim that you're not a meta slave? please don't make a fool of yourself

You are very nervous. Actually, if you really want to see if your build is worth anything, you should check it out in Hardcore or generally start playing hardcore or SSF there, you will learn what build variety looks like.

"

vio wrote:

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

People always want to do all content in the game, because that's the natural thing to do and it has been this way through all of human kinds history, but GGG with their elitist hardcore game attitude can't have that and keeps designing bosses that are so stupid and unfair that only a select few builds who manage to cross about a hundred check marks can even hope to do them.

what's "build diversity"?

to developers, a majority of player setups being able to walk to endgame and killing the endboss means a "low build diversity".

why?

cause builds are meant to be exceptional setups that cleverly combine different concepts for survivability and damage.

if every random poe ninja PoB hero can slap together some defenses and damage gems and succeed with that there is no "build".

for a "build" to be called "a build", there need to be other setups that fail. that's basic understanding of games, not a elitist approach. and you probably need content that challenges ALL builds.

This doesn't make sense.

I don't know what developers you know of, but build diversity is the exact opposite of what you described. The more builds that can tackle (non-uber) aspirational content, the better the build diversity. Nerfing everything into the ground, making "crafting" way too unapproachable for players with low currency, and frontloading most of the power onto gear and thus making it expensive has done a great deal in hurting build diversity. Now if you want to try and engage in content you used to do and had fun doing it, you're now required to run one of a small handful of meta builds, because everything else is either nonviable or way too expensive.

Let's put it another way: Before 3.19, we had a lot of builds, now most are setups that fail, thus there was a decrease in build diversity.

The only time build diversity should be lowered is for uber aspirational content. You're fighting bosses above and beyond what is normal, you should be expected to pump a lot of currency into being able to tackle them.

"

mentos1308 wrote:

You are very nervous. Actually, if you really want to see if your build is worth anything, you should check it out in Hardcore or generally start playing hardcore or SSF there, you will learn what build variety looks like.

It really shouldn't have to be mentioned at this point anymore but this game is NOT balanced around hardcore or SSF. Those modes are nothing more than self imposed challenges. If build diversity there is lower and you don't like it then don't play those modes. Bringing them up in regards to balance and build viability is utterly pointless.