Pathfinder Massive Nerf - Explain!

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Zrevnur wrote:

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SquareCubiC wrote:

so, evaluating shit data is better than no data?
i'd rather not work with statistics at all than having scuffed datasets...
but to each their own i guess...

Most of the data is obviously valid. It doesnt fully represent the whole playerbase due to excluding those set to private and those with lower levels. There are currently 10599 characters lvl 98 and above in Kalandra. poe.ninja has 8703 of them. This is way better than what most RL statistics get as coverage. And in no way this is "shit data".

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SquareCubiC wrote:

bringing in hcssf is not a fair point lol
you compare a pretty much underused ascendancy to a racing environment... i really dont get what you wanna achieve with that, like seriously :D
plus: THEY WERE ABOUT TO CHANGE THE ASCENDANCY, HOW THE F WAS ANYONE SUPPOSED TO PRACTICE WITH THAT.

This may be a misunderstanding. Your quote: "you really wanna say that 7 charges on hit gained, was not broken?" If you meant something other than "Pathfinder Master Surgeon was OP with 7 charges" - maybe make it clear because thats how I interpreted your quote. I questioned that by bringing HCSSF races into play. Whether the Ascendancy is underused or not - what is your point? If it really was OP it would have been overused and not underused. They were about to change it - yes I wasnt talking about the new version. You implied that the old version was OP and I was responding to that.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

but hey, how many deadeyes, raiders or pathfinders have won any race in the past leagues?

Whats your point? You claimed "broken" but the facts do not back it up and I pointed that out. In fact what you just implied (no Ranger winners) counters your "broken" claim.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

just asking, maybe this makes you kinda rething your argument...

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SquareCubiC wrote:

how else would you try and bring up ANY ranger anscendancy in a HFSSF Race context...

It would be more appropriate for you to rethink your "broken" argument?

7 charges on hit was broken... yes, overpowered.
while pathfinder had the most benefit from that, it was literally any archetype that was able to take a punch...
you are aware of the fact that hits, are also blocked hits right?
max block necro, inquisitor, aegis builds for example...
i was referring to the flask mod itself, not the ascendancy.

regarding the poe ninja stuff...
you are aware of the fact that the vast minority of players actually gets to 90, or even close, right?
and that you dont need to be level 98 to have a fully working character.
you provide such a limited view on that...
you even said it yourself, 10.6k players lvl 98+
and poe ninja is missing roughly 20%, on that scope alone!
no think of the characters between 90 and 98...
if you confidently rely on such a statistic, i really dont know what i shall tell you, but... this is some shit data you're working with.
90% of the build archetypes work perfectly fine with level 90-95...
with clusters, forbidden jewels, timeless jewels, and gear, you dont necessarily need those extra levels, this is most commonly what softcore players do, they die a lot, and dont care about their xp...

and back to the poe ninja thing, i really dont think that you easily find people there, who actively try out things and push their ideas to the limits, while also having their profile public.
what's the point of grinding to 98+, when i actually have to hold myself back, in terms of map juice and such... and cannot test out the limits of my character? again, not talking about some meta stuff, or copied builds, i am talking about trying things out.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

7 charges on hit was broken... yes, overpowered.
while pathfinder had the most benefit from that, it was literally any archetype that was able to take a punch...
you are aware of the fact that hits, are also blocked hits right?
max block necro, inquisitor, aegis builds for example...
i was referring to the flask mod itself, not the ascendancy.

But then what was the point of your "you really wanna say that 7 charges on hit gained, was not broken?" statement? My issue was and still is that they didnt even mention Pathfinder.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

regarding the poe ninja stuff...
you are aware of the fact that the vast minority of players actually gets to 90, or even close, right?
and that you dont need to be level 98 to have a fully working character.
you provide such a limited view on that...
you even said it yourself, 10.6k players lvl 98+
and poe ninja is missing roughly 20%, on that scope alone!
no think of the characters between 90 and 98...
if you confidently rely on such a statistic, i really dont know what i shall tell you, but... this is some shit data you're working with.
90% of the build archetypes work perfectly fine with level 90-95...
with clusters, forbidden jewels, timeless jewels, and gear, you dont necessarily need those extra levels,

Yes the data is a selection of the whole relevant data. And the selection of the higher levels is such that the best in terms of power leveling are selected. This represents a large part of successful builds and good players. And if you use a later snapshot its quite possible that it doesnt cover everything like bossing builds. However you can also find lower levels in earlier snapshots. The better/earlier SC bossers are going to be in there if they arent private. But blindly looking at end-of-league snapshot may indeed warp the whole picture. That doesnt mean that poe.ninja is useless or bad as data source. Its more a user and how-to-use thing. Basically just like any other data used in statistics.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

this is most commonly what softcore players do, they die a lot, and dont care about their xp...

I dont want this as base for game balance. I dont consider a "dies a lot" player + character combination a proper (generic) build played by a competent player. And I have seen plenty of complaints here on the forums of SC players dieing. So my impression is rather that they do not want to die and are not ok with dieing all the time. So excluding these can even be a good thing. But it really depends what you want from the data.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

and back to the poe ninja thing, i really dont think that you easily find people there, who actively try out things and push their ideas to the limits, while also having their profile public.
what's the point of grinding to 98+, when i actually have to hold myself back, in terms of map juice and such... and cannot test out the limits of my character? again, not talking about some meta stuff, or copied builds, i am talking about trying things out.

No you cant easily find such people apart from known players and HCSSF boss event winners and such. Most of the best PoE players in HCSSF are visible in poe.ninja.
But: IME many players who "actively try out things and push their ideas to the limits" and succeed are interested in sharing the results of their work in form of guides or reddit posts. From then on other players are going to copy those builds and the result is exactly what you said yourself: Many builds on poe.ninja are copies. And it works like with Darwin evolution: The successful copies end up higher and get copied more etc. Basically poe.ninja reflects creative builds that work well with some time delay. And those players doing the copying dont have to be creative themselves.

hard disagree that SC players "die alot". BAD softcore players die a lot. The better or more experienced players are constantly working towards NOT dying, even in SC.

I agree with Zrevnur, the baseline CANNOT be that softcore players are designed to die. That's a ridiculous thing to say. They are designed to die against unfamiliar mechanics or mechanics that are above their current stats, but they shouldn't be dying to everything everywhere.