Pathfinder Massive Nerf - Explain!

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Xzorn wrote:

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jjb1214 wrote:

+1
this was a good post

I'm a fan of the new Trickster having not even played it yet.

It has a defined style but it also doesn't discriminate against any skill you choose.

It's defined by it's starting location and that's it. Would love to see more like it.

My expectation is that the new Trickster is part of the make-it-OP-and-then-overnerf-it-dead cycle(*). The numbers dont look right to me: At least 'Polymath' is too strong.

And the combination of 'Escape Artist' + 'Soul Drinker' + 'Spell Breaker' (+ 'Wicked Ward') also looks to me like it should be nerfed before going live.



(*) Going by that logic Pathfinder may get a similar "rework". (And I dislike this ping-pong-unbalancing by GGG.)

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Xzorn wrote:

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Problem: Pathfinder's Master Alchemist skill is quite weak, which also causes Pathfinder to be pushed mostly towards chaos-based builds as non-chaos builds do not have enough compelling ascendancy skills to choose from.

I find this particularly disturbing. That defines most ascendancies. Which is why they were never really a good addition IMO. Most just add a big generic stat that you'd be dumb to not use in a build.

Very, very few have actual defining features to them and most of those were nerfed. Zerker had a cool Warcry feature, Assassin had Elusive, Elementalist still has the Elemental Ward which is fine. Deadeye is quite generic still despite a recent revamp attempting to make them unique.

It doesn't work. Never has, least the way it's being done. Players pick an asendancy then fly across the tree for their actual builds. Cluster jewels sorta helped fix this then most were nerfed.

They really should consider removing all generic bonuses from Ascendancies and giving them simple unique features. Things like the Deadeye's Mirage Archer node would be good if it wasn't too big. Cursed enemies exploding, Always have phasing and exposure as an aura. These are fine features.

We don't need crap like 20% More Bleeding, 15% More Chaos, 20% More DoT.
Put that crap in the base tree.

True. Surprised they kept evasion es for boots passive for Trickster. As that node was obviously bland.

I'd get rid of all stat stacker nodes. 10% chieftain str? nope. Accuracy for jugg stacker? nope. Str Int stacker Inques? No. Not a fan of stat stackers when their all on poe ninja, more than half the time ranked.

Reaching to the other side of the tree isn't as easy to build good for then not wasted points on passives. So I don't ness find traveling node builds or builds that use 20 to 40 +10 to stat nodes to get somewhere, over a build that only had use less than 20.

So traveling builds are not equal to builds that don't have to travel or reach across the skill tree. Thus for equality sake, any build that uses 20, 30, or 40 +10 stat passives to reach should be compensated for that reach. Verses a build that didn't require a reach. Not equal. So every 10 points spent on +10 stats, should by fairness give you a bonus +1 point to use.

Or else ye I am able to build, builds that only use 18 or less +10 stats, & will do more dps than a build that used 20 to 40 +10 stats.

& I'm not speaking of stat stacker builds which benefit from +10 stats, speaking of regular non stack stacker builds that need to travel the leylines. As stat stackers should be nerfed anyways.

I'd also avoid stereotyping the ascendaries too much. Example " Oh Jugg? Ye's hes the endurance charge guy " Or " Gladiator? Oh that's the block guy " I get it's good to have a theme. Tho I wouldn't suggest that theme have to do with stereotyping them too much. Meaning Jugg shouldn't have had or have (forgot to see new jugg ascend skill positions) 4 endurance passives. 2 was enough & the other 2 are better for hybrid builds unrelated to endurance charges. Same goes for Gladiators block passives, 2 is better than 4. Or else people feel like they need to pick that ascend everytime they want to build for endurance or block.

Timeless jewels help a lot & other ideas similar to these jewels. So I'd just keep making ways to switch the train tracks, without having to reach to the other side as well.

Some reaching to the skill tree, is going to be better if they make max lvl 120 as well. Having 20 more points available.

As for Pathfinder, how about they allow me to change the hair color of Rangers first.
Where's the starter hair appearance sliders?

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Zrevnur wrote:

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Xzorn wrote:

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jjb1214 wrote:

+1
this was a good post

I'm a fan of the new Trickster having not even played it yet.

It has a defined style but it also doesn't discriminate against any skill you choose.

It's defined by it's starting location and that's it. Would love to see more like it.

My expectation is that the new Trickster is part of the make-it-OP-and-then-overnerf-it-dead cycle(*). The numbers dont look right to me: At least 'Polymath' is too strong.

And the combination of 'Escape Artist' + 'Soul Drinker' + 'Spell Breaker' (+ 'Wicked Ward') also looks to me like it should be nerfed before going live.



(*) Going by that logic Pathfinder may get a similar "rework". (And I dislike this ping-pong-unbalancing by GGG.)

I don't see why. Polymat is generally going to be +15-20%. That's in-line with most.
It's not per it's each different one and the ES Overleech is worse than Slayer's.
The Speed Node is probably my favorite by far.

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RuneLuthien wrote:

I'd also avoid stereotyping the ascendaries too much. Example " Oh Jugg? Ye's hes the endurance charge guy " Or " Gladiator? Oh that's the block guy " I get it's good to have a theme. Tho I wouldn't suggest that theme have to do with stereotyping them too much. Meaning Jugg shouldn't have had or have (forgot to see new jugg ascend skill positions) 4 endurance passives. 2 was enough & the other 2 are better for hybrid builds unrelated to endurance charges. Same goes for Gladiators block passives, 2 is better than 4. Or else people feel like they need to pick that ascend everytime they want to build for endurance or block.

I dislike this even more when it's like. "I wana made a bleed build" - Well ya got two choices.
Why are Glad and Ascendant the only things I can pick for Bleed? It's dumb.

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Xzorn wrote:

I don't see why. Polymat is generally going to be +15-20%. That's in-line with most.
It's not per it's each different one and the ES Overleech is worse than Slayer's.
The Speed Node is probably my favorite by far.

I was theorycrafting before league start and scratched out a Lightning Conduit build (didn't end up playing it). Wasn't trying to only hit different masteries and just picked up what I would've played. Hit 11 different masteries without trying basically and could've easily made a variant with a few more. This is almost Aspect of Carnage damage but with a massive amount of recovery for 3 things AND no downside.

https://pastebin.com/ZfZ1dMEQ

Shadow seems to be in an area of the tree where there's a LOT of different mastery types in a small space.

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Zrevnur wrote:

No changes in patch notes for 3.19.

Only slightly relevant part I found was the new curse. But the cap on flask charge gain is so low that the charge gain part is approximately useless for 'Master Surgeon' - at least on the lvl 1 gem shown.

do you need changes to balance something?
just saying...
with the right flask setup, certain mods on gear, and nodes on the tree, this is actually a buff...

and i am not even talking about mageblood builds...
i dunno, dont follow an outrage blindly... but i guess that's the playerbase right now...

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SquareCubiC wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

No changes in patch notes for 3.19.

Only slightly relevant part I found was the new curse. But the cap on flask charge gain is so low that the charge gain part is approximately useless for 'Master Surgeon' - at least on the lvl 1 gem shown.

do you need changes to balance something?

No idea what you mean here. I meant: No changes relative to the previously communicated manifesto.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

with the right flask setup, certain mods on gear, and nodes on the tree, this is actually a buff...

With "this" you mean the smaller nerf? If yes: As I wrote - for some builds this can be a buff. In most cases however its a nerf. So overall its a nerf.

Edit: Just looked here: https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds?class=Pathfinder
13% of Pathfinders use 'Master Alchemist'. And 98% 'Nature's Boon'. So for those ~85% its automatically a nerf. And for those 13% its only potentially a buff but usually a nerf too.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

and i am not even talking about mageblood builds...

And who plays Pathfinder with Mageblood? You may want to look at Pathfinders vs general Mageblood ratio on poe.ninja. If this was supposed to make Pathfinder attractive for Mageblood owners then it failed miserably.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

i dunno, dont follow an outrage blindly... but i guess that's the playerbase right now...

If you look at the date of my OP you can see that this was posted way before the big outrage.

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Zrevnur wrote:

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SquareCubiC wrote:

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Zrevnur wrote:

No changes in patch notes for 3.19.

Only slightly relevant part I found was the new curse. But the cap on flask charge gain is so low that the charge gain part is approximately useless for 'Master Surgeon' - at least on the lvl 1 gem shown.

do you need changes to balance something?

No idea what you mean here. I meant: No changes relative to the previously communicated manifesto.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

with the right flask setup, certain mods on gear, and nodes on the tree, this is actually a buff...

With "this" you mean the smaller nerf? If yes: As I wrote - for some builds this can be a buff. In most cases however its a nerf. So overall its a nerf.

Edit: Just looked here: https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds?class=Pathfinder
13% of Pathfinders use 'Master Alchemist'. And 98% 'Nature's Boon'. So for those ~85% its automatically a nerf. And for those 13% its only potentially a buff but usually a nerf too.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

and i am not even talking about mageblood builds...

And who plays Pathfinder with Mageblood? You may want to look at Pathfinders vs general Mageblood ratio on poe.ninja. If this was supposed to make Pathfinder attractive for Mageblood owners then it failed miserably.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

i dunno, dont follow an outrage blindly... but i guess that's the playerbase right now...

If you look at the date of my OP you can see that this was posted way before the big outrage.

i am very sorry, but i really dont care about poe ninja, as it is not representative imo.
private accounts are not represented. to begin with...
so, referencing poe ninja in such a context is worth as much as saying
"Player retention is bad, look at steamcharts"

if you look at how players have, and now even more, deal with "nerfs" and changes...
"oh no, this skill in its highest potential got a 5% nerf" - still deals 4.5 shapers per second damage.
Playerbase: literally unplayable.

sorry, but the vast majority follows build guides of a content creator of their choice.
most likely click baited 9283498 billion dps league starter on a 1.5 alch budget.

who uses mageblood with pathfinder... well, maybe in the past no one? fewer? dunno? dont care either?
but 20% inc flask effect, seem pretty fucking nutty imo...
but hey, who am i to judge, i am not on poe ninja anyway, neither checking, nor shown :)

I prefer to play the game, instead of checking what others do... what else is the point of spending time on the game?

20% inc flask effect is strong as a node. It is however laughably weak as an ascendancy point. It sounds great on paper. But let's look at the mighty Jade Flask--20% inc flask effect here gives you a whopping 300 evasion. Yes, that's only 1 of 5 flasks (though if you have a heal flask, that's now at most 4 flasks) but are you seriously okay with spending one of your four ascendancy points on that?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

i am very sorry, but i really dont care about poe ninja, as it is not representative imo.
private accounts are not represented. to begin with...
so, referencing poe ninja in such a context is worth as much as saying
"Player retention is bad, look at steamcharts"

poe.ninja & steamcharts are better than no source/evidence. And if you have better data - show it.
Without looking at what kind of flasks Pathfinders use its pretty difficult to quantify such a change so in addition to what I did in the past I have looked at poe.ninja. If you dont like poe.ninja you can also look at my own latest Pathfinder from Sentinel league: See here: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1843683/page/514#p24627985 - Quicksilver, Quartz, Granite - there is no way 20% on these would compensate for what I automatically lose (6% reduced ele) and what I would lose to take them (another notable). Hence its a nerf but GGG out of dishonesty or incompetence (I cant say unfortunately) markets it as something positive.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

if you look at how players have, and now even more, deal with "nerfs" and changes...
"oh no, this skill in its highest potential got a 5% nerf" - still deals 4.5 shapers per second damage.
Playerbase: literally unplayable.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

sorry, but the vast majority follows build guides of a content creator of their choice.
most likely click baited 9283498 billion dps league starter on a 1.5 alch budget.

I dont know if that is true or not but: What does that have to do with this topic?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

who uses mageblood with pathfinder... well, maybe in the past no one? fewer? dunno? dont care either?

If you dont care - why bring it up?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

but 20% inc flask effect, seem pretty fucking nutty imo...

For an Ascendancy notable that got approximately nothing else and in the context of another Ascendancy notable being nerfed to "compensate"? Or show me your math why this is so good? I gave a comparison in the OP. To me its pretty clear that overall on average this change was a nerf to Pathfinder.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

I prefer to play the game, instead of checking what others do... what else is the point of spending time on the game?

To post in the forum in this thread maybe?