Pathfinder Massive Nerf - Explain!

Big Nerf to Master Surgeon:

"

Problem: The line of flask modifiers that grant flask charges when you are hit by an enemy make it too easy to keep your flasks active permanently for most non-boss content.

Solution: Lower the values of flask modifiers that grant charges when you are hit by an enemy.

Details:

The Delinquent's and Sinner's modifiers can no longer be rolled on Flasks. The Transgressor's, Masochist's and Flagellant's modifiers now provide 1, 2 and 3 charges when hit by an enemy respectively (previously 4, 6 and 7 charges). Existing items can be updated to these new values using a Divine Orb.

Master Surgeon recovery from getting hit goes from 7 to 3 charges. This means expected life recovery is less than half of what it was before. As Master Surgeon was kind of the best node - especially for non-chaos - this is a huge nerf.


Smaller Nerf - remove the 6% reduced elemental damage taken:

"

Problem: Pathfinder's Master Alchemist skill is quite weak, which also causes Pathfinder to be pushed mostly towards chaos-based builds as non-chaos builds do not have enough compelling ascendancy skills to choose from.

Solution: Add more power to Master Alchemist. Partially compensate by removing extraneous power from the much stronger Nature's Boon.

Details:

Pathfinder's Master Alchemist Notable Ascendancy passive Skill no longer grants 20% chance to Freeze, Shock and Ignite during any Flask Effect. Instead, it now causes Magic Utility Flasks applied to you to have 20% increased Effect.
Pathfinder's Nature's Boon Notable Ascendancy Passive Skill no longer grants 6% reduced Elemental Damage taken.

Approximately all Pathfinders get 'Nature's Boon'. So for all Pathfinders not getting 'Master Alchemist' this is a clear nerf. Right now almost no Pathfinders get 'Master Alchemist' (because its bad - they got this part right) so only by getting different nodes this can potentially be a buff.

But you have to give up another Notable to get the new 'Master Alchemist'. Lets assume this is the weak 'Nature's Adrenaline' notable.
You lose approximately:
- 6% reduced elemental damage taken
- 15% movement speed
- 20% attack speed
You gain approximately:
- 20% flask effect for magic utility flasks
- flasks remove elemental ailments on use
The "flasks remove elemental ailments on use" part is almost (or completely - depending on build) useless. This is the reason why 'Master Alchemist' is considered so bad.
Comparing the 'lose' vs 'gain': At best its a slight buff. On average its a nerf.

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What I am missing in the manifesto is an explanation of whether this double nerf was intended or not. To me parts of the manifesto read like somebody clueless with low motivation and insufficient time made the whole thing. Most nerfs have a 'Problem' line attached. Here however for the big nerf there was no 'Pathfinder too strong' or similar 'Problem' line there. And for the small nerf I would question whether the changes actually help solving the proclaimed 'Problem'.

Some other threads about this:

Similar to my thread:
https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wfeuj9/ggg_was_the_goal_to_nerf_pathfinder_this_patch/

Thread focusing on the smaller nerf ("Nature's Boon" losing 6% reduced ele damage taken): https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wi3dau/breaking_down_the_pathfinder_buff/

#3 is about the small nerf:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3292416/page/1
https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wfbo9y/feedback_for_the_319_manifesto_3_specific_issues/

https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wfpm1i/stop_nerfing_ascendancies/

Older thread: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3186336

"

Problem: Pathfinder's Master Alchemist skill is quite weak, which also causes Pathfinder to be pushed mostly towards chaos-based builds as non-chaos builds do not have enough compelling ascendancy skills to choose from.

I find this particularly disturbing. That defines most ascendancies. Which is why they were never really a good addition IMO. Most just add a big generic stat that you'd be dumb to not use in a build.

Very, very few have actual defining features to them and most of those were nerfed. Zerker had a cool Warcry feature, Assassin had Elusive, Elementalist still has the Elemental Ward which is fine. Deadeye is quite generic still despite a recent revamp attempting to make them unique.

It doesn't work. Never has, least the way it's being done. Players pick an asendancy then fly across the tree for their actual builds. Cluster jewels sorta helped fix this then most were nerfed.

They really should consider removing all generic bonuses from Ascendancies and giving them simple unique features. Things like the Deadeye's Mirage Archer node would be good if it wasn't too big. Cursed enemies exploding, Always have phasing and exposure as an aura. These are fine features.

We don't need crap like 20% More Bleeding, 15% More Chaos, 20% More DoT.
Put that crap in the base tree.

"

Xzorn wrote:

"

Problem: Pathfinder's Master Alchemist skill is quite weak, which also causes Pathfinder to be pushed mostly towards chaos-based builds as non-chaos builds do not have enough compelling ascendancy skills to choose from.

I find this particularly disturbing. That defines most ascendancies. Which is why they were never really a good addition IMO. Most just add a big generic stat that you'd be dumb to not use in a build.

Very, very few have actual defining features to them and most of those were nerfed. Zerker had a cool Warcry feature, Assassin had Elusive, Elementalist still has the Elemental Ward which is fine. Deadeye is quite generic still despite a recent revamp attempting to make them unique.

It doesn't work. Never has, least the way it's being done. Players pick an asendancy then fly across the tree for their actual builds. Cluster jewels sorta helped fix this then most were nerfed.

They really should consider removing all generic bonuses from Ascendancies and giving them simple unique features. Things like the Deadeye's Mirage Archer node would be good if it wasn't too big. Cursed enemies exploding, Always have phasing and exposure as an aura. These are fine features.

We don't need crap like 20% More Bleeding, 15% More Chaos, 20% More DoT.
Put that crap in the base tree.

Ascendancies should have proper identity. This used to be much better. I dont understand either why GGG does introduce stuff and then (apparently intentionally) diminishes it. While for some things this may make sense from GGGs POV (not that I agree with it) here I dont see it at all: They arent planning to replace Ascendancies and Ascendancies are a (arguably the biggest) distinctification between characters.

And I have another principle issue: Core effects of ascendancies shouldnt have achilles heels. For Pathfinder these are anti flask mods like flask effect removal, cannot gain flask charges etc. For juggernaut its monsters stealing (endurance) charges. Etc. IMO ascendancies should come with the respective immunities: Hierophant cant be mana siphoned, Juggernaut cant have Endurances stolen, etc.

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Added some links to post #2.

as everyone else has said, pathfinders rarely ever use more than one or two magic utility flasks all the planned changes are going to do is make PF squishier. with master surgeon builds being dead and master alchemist still being fairly useless, 3.19 is actually going to push pathfinders away from non-chaos builds instead of towards them, since veteran bowyer sucks and nature's adrenaline is still a better pickup than master alchemist.

poison has always been pathfinder's secondary identity, and before being nerfed into oblivion master alchemist had bonus elemental damage to help support non-chaos builds, so I think something like "elemental damage can apply poison with x% reduced chance" fits the notable's original purpose better while also synergizing with her other nodes and differentiating elemental pathfinders from other ranger ascendancies' elemental builds.

alternatively, add protection from ground effects. a huge part of master alchemist's value before expedition was that it freed up a big chunk of your power budget. it no longer does this, since pathfinder now has to stack 100% ailment mitigation to deal with things like shocking ground, at which point there's no reason to get master alchemist since it's just a worse version of 100% avoid. make it contingent on flask use if you have to, but protection from ground effects would be hugely helpful and open up some build options by making gearing and passive choices more flexible

alternatively alternatively, leave britney alone. just like. don't do anything. this ascendancy has suffered enough and we'd like you to stop abusing us

No changes in patch notes for 3.19.

Only slightly relevant part I found was the new curse. But the cap on flask charge gain is so low that the charge gain part is approximately useless for 'Master Surgeon' - at least on the lvl 1 gem shown.

"

Only slightly relevant part I found was the new curse. But the cap on flask charge gain is so low that the charge gain part is approximately useless for 'Master Surgeon' - at least on the lvl 1 gem shown.

They posted 20/20 "Alchemist's Mark" on twitter and its the same. So far as I understand the wording you can only gain 1 flask charge per 3 seconds, meaning 1 flask gains 1 charge. Presumably this can be multiplied with curse/mark effectiveness but its still going to stay <2 for Pathfinder. So comparing with the easily available unconditional 3 charges per 3 seconds on all flasks this is approximately useless for Pathfinder Master Surgeon.

So in short: No good news in reveal & patch notes, bad news stay as in OP.

GGG posted some update to 'Alchemist's Mark' on reddit (*): The flask charge gain wording on the curse is wrong(**): The mark causes all flasks to gain a charge not just one of them.

Source: https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wpdoel/why_is_alchemists_marks_charge_gain_so_low_if/


(*) Of course they dont post such things in their own forum...

(**) Blatant blunder like that doesnt speak well for competence of whoever is in charge of doing such things now: The wording is/was inconsistent with both simple English and PoE English.

"

Xzorn wrote:

"

Problem: Pathfinder's Master Alchemist skill is quite weak, which also causes Pathfinder to be pushed mostly towards chaos-based builds as non-chaos builds do not have enough compelling ascendancy skills to choose from.

I find this particularly disturbing. That defines most ascendancies. Which is why they were never really a good addition IMO. Most just add a big generic stat that you'd be dumb to not use in a build.

Very, very few have actual defining features to them and most of those were nerfed. Zerker had a cool Warcry feature, Assassin had Elusive, Elementalist still has the Elemental Ward which is fine. Deadeye is quite generic still despite a recent revamp attempting to make them unique.

It doesn't work. Never has, least the way it's being done. Players pick an asendancy then fly across the tree for their actual builds. Cluster jewels sorta helped fix this then most were nerfed.

They really should consider removing all generic bonuses from Ascendancies and giving them simple unique features. Things like the Deadeye's Mirage Archer node would be good if it wasn't too big. Cursed enemies exploding, Always have phasing and exposure as an aura. These are fine features.

We don't need crap like 20% More Bleeding, 15% More Chaos, 20% More DoT.
Put that crap in the base tree.

+1
this was a good post

"

jjb1214 wrote:

+1
this was a good post

I'm a fan of the new Trickster having not even played it yet.

It has a defined style but it also doesn't discriminate against any skill you choose.

It's defined by it's starting location and that's it. Would love to see more like it.