Pathfinder Massive Nerf - Explain!

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Zrevnur wrote:

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SquareCubiC wrote:

i am very sorry, but i really dont care about poe ninja, as it is not representative imo.
private accounts are not represented. to begin with...
so, referencing poe ninja in such a context is worth as much as saying
"Player retention is bad, look at steamcharts"

poe.ninja & steamcharts are better than no source/evidence. And if you have better data - show it.
Without looking at what kind of flasks Pathfinders use its pretty difficult to quantify such a change so in addition to what I did in the past I have looked at poe.ninja. If you dont like poe.ninja you can also look at my own latest Pathfinder from Sentinel league: See here: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/1843683/page/514#p24627985 - Quicksilver, Quartz, Granite - there is no way 20% on these would compensate for what I automatically lose (6% reduced ele) and what I would lose to take them (another notable). Hence its a nerf but GGG out of dishonesty or incompetence (I cant say unfortunately) markets it as something positive.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

if you look at how players have, and now even more, deal with "nerfs" and changes...
"oh no, this skill in its highest potential got a 5% nerf" - still deals 4.5 shapers per second damage.
Playerbase: literally unplayable.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

sorry, but the vast majority follows build guides of a content creator of their choice.
most likely click baited 9283498 billion dps league starter on a 1.5 alch budget.

I dont know if that is true or not but: What does that have to do with this topic?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

who uses mageblood with pathfinder... well, maybe in the past no one? fewer? dunno? dont care either?

If you dont care - why bring it up?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

but 20% inc flask effect, seem pretty fucking nutty imo...

For an Ascendancy notable that got approximately nothing else and in the context of another Ascendancy notable being nerfed to "compensate"? Or show me your math why this is so good? I gave a comparison in the OP. To me its pretty clear that overall on average this change was a nerf to Pathfinder.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

I prefer to play the game, instead of checking what others do... what else is the point of spending time on the game?

To post in the forum in this thread maybe?

okay, if you're confident in evaluating whacky data...
you are that kind of person that also judges a pizzas taste by a single bite then? without the topping?

i am sorry to say that, but bringing YOUR past league pathfinder is not a valid argument imo.
it rather brings up doubts and questions:
• are you a pathfinder main?
• was it a build you copied?
• have you ever made an own PF build? or at least modified it?

and the reason for those doubts is, that you ignore the fact that topaz, ruby, sapphire and amethyst flasks exist... you completely ignore potential interactions.
those flasks, enkindled with effect, and that ascendancy node, make you borderline unkillable, if you roll good suffixes of AT LEAST T2, especially with inc effect prefixes...
quite ironic you call that incompetence on GGGs behalf.

how this playerbase comparison fits this topic? well, not meant as an offense, but you act like that. exactly like that.
and you dont follow my argument even, i do not care WHAT OTHERS DO, so i dont care whether people used mageblood on PF or not.
but honestly, especially in the past leagues, if you got a mageblood on a PF, would you not have rerolled? i definitely would have. with that ascendancy change tho, i'd roll flasks as mentioned above, and steam roll to 100 lol.

why do i have to do maths for you?
in a general circumstance, it may be less practical, okay? but now it is an situational ascendancy?
no?

then again, i am not that person that wants to try and tell people how to play the game.
enjoy the game the way you want, if you dont enjoy it, dont play it, that counts for classes, archetypes and the game itself. it's just as easy as that.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

i am sorry to say that, but bringing YOUR past league pathfinder is not a valid argument imo.
it rather brings up doubts and questions:
• are you a pathfinder main?
• was it a build you copied?
• have you ever made an own PF build? or at least modified it?

All my builds are self made. I have never copied another build nor followed a build guide.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

and the reason for those doubts is, that you ignore the fact that topaz, ruby, sapphire and amethyst flasks exist... you completely ignore potential interactions.

No, I dont. And mentioning Amethyst in this context makes no sense as it does not have a "less" on it like the other three.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

those flasks, enkindled with effect, and that ascendancy node, make you borderline unkillable, if you roll good suffixes of AT LEAST T2, especially with inc effect prefixes...
quite ironic you call that incompetence on GGGs behalf.

And who does that Enkindling apart from top bossers (who dont play Pathfinder - guess why?) and Mageblood users (who also dont play Pathfinders - guess why?)?
And no, those 20% do not make you "borderline unkillable". Show me the math - dont just throw qulitative arguments. And yes if you do these then you can be one of those for whom the nerf is actually a buff. But in no way do those 20% make you "borderline unkillable". And the important part here is whether this is practically useful or no - show me those Pathfinders who are doing that. From my own perspective the #1 reason why I played Pathfinder in the past is that I didnt have to micromanage flasks so much. Having to use Enkindling is the exact opposite thing.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

and you dont follow my argument even,

Which argument? The latest Mageblood one which is meaningless without statistics which you then right after making it dismiss as "I dont care" or what other argument are you referring to?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

with that ascendancy change tho, i'd roll flasks as mentioned above, and steam roll to 100 lol.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

why do i have to do maths for you?

Maybe you dont understand the math? With Mageblood you get 95% from flask, maybe 10% from tree. With passives & clusters etc you can get more but does it make sense to get those clusters / passives that are otherwise near useless with Mageblood? So lets assume you have 105% without class. You get 20% from small nodes => 125%. With the new 'Master Alchemist' (which costs you a notable) you get 145%. So you now(3.19) take 51% of the ele damage instead of (3.18) 55% * 0.94 ~= 51.7%. => So you have ~1.4% more survival against ele in comparison with 3.18 and in 3.18 you didnt lose another Notable for it. And yes you also get 20% on 5x suffix and one other flask but those scale normally - see comparison in OP. And yes in this case you can end up with a small buff overall. In no way however do I agree with your wording implying that those 20% make you "borderline unkillable" or some such thing. This is as misleading as GGG advertising this nerf.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

in a general circumstance, it may be less practical, okay? but now it is an situational ascendancy?
no?

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

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Zrevnur wrote:

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SquareCubiC wrote:

i am sorry to say that, but bringing YOUR past league pathfinder is not a valid argument imo.
it rather brings up doubts and questions:
• are you a pathfinder main?
• was it a build you copied?
• have you ever made an own PF build? or at least modified it?

All my builds are self made. I have never copied another build nor followed a build guide.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

and the reason for those doubts is, that you ignore the fact that topaz, ruby, sapphire and amethyst flasks exist... you completely ignore potential interactions.

No, I dont. And mentioning Amethyst in this context makes no sense as it does not have a "less" on it like the other three.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

those flasks, enkindled with effect, and that ascendancy node, make you borderline unkillable, if you roll good suffixes of AT LEAST T2, especially with inc effect prefixes...
quite ironic you call that incompetence on GGGs behalf.

And who does that Enkindling apart from top bossers (who dont play Pathfinder - guess why?) and Mageblood users (who also dont play Pathfinders - guess why?)?
And no, those 20% do not make you "borderline unkillable". Show me the math - dont just throw qulitative arguments. And yes if you do these then you can be one of those for whom the nerf is actually a buff. But in no way do those 20% make you "borderline unkillable". And the important part here is whether this is practically useful or no - show me those Pathfinders who are doing that. From my own perspective the #1 reason why I played Pathfinder in the past is that I didnt have to micromanage flasks so much. Having to use Enkindling is the exact opposite thing.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

and you dont follow my argument even,

Which argument? The latest Mageblood one which is meaningless without statistics which you then right after making it dismiss as "I dont care" or what other argument are you referring to?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

with that ascendancy change tho, i'd roll flasks as mentioned above, and steam roll to 100 lol.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

why do i have to do maths for you?

Maybe you dont understand the math? With Mageblood you get 95% from flask, maybe 10% from tree. With passives & clusters etc you can get more but does it make sense to get those clusters / passives that are otherwise near useless with Mageblood? So lets assume you have 105% without class. You get 20% from small nodes => 125%. With the new 'Master Alchemist' (which costs you a notable) you get 145%. So you now(3.19) take 51% of the ele damage instead of (3.18) 55% * 0.94 ~= 51.7%. => So you have ~1.4% more survival against ele in comparison with 3.18 and in 3.18 you didnt lose another Notable for it. And yes you also get 20% on 5x suffix and one other flask but those scale normally - see comparison in OP. And yes in this case you can end up with a small buff overall. In no way however do I agree with your wording implying that those 20% make you "borderline unkillable" or some such thing. This is as misleading as GGG advertising this nerf.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

in a general circumstance, it may be less practical, okay? but now it is an situational ascendancy?
no?

Not sure what you are trying to say here.

yes, you are right, it doesnt have less dmg taken, but it easily caps your chaos res... lol

sorry, but i dont need to show you maths? like seriously?
making a fuzz about something actually super minor, completely ignoring aspects like the forbidden jewels and other things...
and also sorry, but your demanding self entitlement is obnoxious. you clearly seem to be focussed on your opinion, which is fine, but i am not gonna deal with that "mhhh show me maths, show me statistics" kind of bullshit.
come again when you have learned how to behave like a human and how to have an argument.
i really dont see your problem, but apparently you cannot deal with something being changed that you got used to, completely ignoring that in certain cases, you might not have seen as possible, this is completely fine...
but as i said, go on, be stubborn, complain about changes, narrow your horizon, completely ignore potential... good take on life.

for the sake of the forum, i left my 2 cents here, but i am gonna drop off, dont feel like having a completely pointless "Dunning-Kruger effect" discussion, therefore, cya!

(Ignoring all the personal/insults here.)

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SquareCubiC wrote:

yes, you are right, it doesnt have less dmg taken, but it easily caps your chaos res... lol

IMO Amethyst is usually too weak to use on a finished build.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

sorry, but i dont need to show you maths? like seriously?

No idea what you mean here.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

making a fuzz about something actually super minor,

Did you actually read the title and the OP? The main reason for this topic is GGGs communication. If they want to nerf Pathfinder they should state it properly in the manifesto and not just indirect-side nerf (Master Surgeon) or wording it like its a buff (Master Alchemist). And IMO this communication thing is (overall, GGG does seem to do this kind of thing a lot) a big thing and not a small thing. While you can argue here that the small nerf is a small thing the overall issue is (IMO) not. And the big nerf (Master Surgeon) isnt a small thing either.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

completely ignoring aspects like the forbidden jewels and other things...

Why dont you show how these are relevant here?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

completely ignoring that in certain cases, you might not have seen as possible, this is completely fine...

Did you actually read the OP? I already stated there that in some cases its probably not a nerf.

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Zrevnur wrote:

(Ignoring all the personal/insults here.)

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SquareCubiC wrote:

yes, you are right, it doesnt have less dmg taken, but it easily caps your chaos res... lol

IMO Amethyst is usually too weak to use on a finished build.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

sorry, but i dont need to show you maths? like seriously?

No idea what you mean here.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

making a fuzz about something actually super minor,

Did you actually read the title and the OP? The main reason for this topic is GGGs communication. If they want to nerf Pathfinder they should state it properly in the manifesto and not just indirect-side nerf (Master Surgeon) or wording it like its a buff (Master Alchemist). And IMO this communication thing is (overall, GGG does seem to do this kind of thing a lot) a big thing and not a small thing. While you can argue here that the small nerf is a small thing the overall issue is (IMO) not. And the big nerf (Master Surgeon) isnt a small thing either.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

completely ignoring aspects like the forbidden jewels and other things...

Why dont you show how these are relevant here?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

completely ignoring that in certain cases, you might not have seen as possible, this is completely fine...

Did you actually read the OP? I already stated there that in some cases its probably not a nerf.

oh, if i made you feel offended, i am sorry...
tho i dont really see any insults?
yes, i called you stubborn, and still do, because you refer to pathfinder as it was, this change makes it more powerful than before, in actually quite many circumstances... but yea, in regards of "old iterations" it is a nerf.
complaining about that is basically like trying to argue against the internet, for the sake of libraries...

and hey, i just read your OP, and have to say,
starting with the Threads title, it reeks of self entitlement and disrespect... "ey ggg, you changed something - EXPLAIN!"
sorry, but who do you think you are?
even IF you were cashing in league for league in supporter packs, this would not make you a special person?
you were referring to a freaking Manifesto, not even actual patchnotes, yet you were acting like a prick, as if they owed you anything.
i dont get that demanding and disrespectful mentality, especially when it is people barely ever having spend money on the game...

then, master surgeon.
you really wanna say that 7 charges on hit gained, was not broken?
oooooooooooookay...
imagine having to rely on different ways to recover life, literally unplayable game!

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Approximately all Pathfinders get 'Nature's Boon'. So for all Pathfinders not getting 'Master Alchemist' this is a clear nerf. Right now almost no Pathfinders get 'Master Alchemist' (because its bad - they got this part right) so only by getting different nodes this can potentially be a buff.

this makes, by no means, any sense... same for your listing...
but as a sidenote, you again got those "stats" from poe.ninja right?
the website that lists people copying stuff from other people on there.
that excludes private profiles.
not gonna lie, you have to work on your argumentation game...
regarding the ascendancy tho, you're literally ignoring potential flask mods...
and i really feel like you dont even want to consider those?
i really dont get what your goal is... you're literally complaining about having new potential...

you dont wanna see that, fine, we have talked about that already, but as i said before, i am not here to discuss something that you clearly dont even want to see. i dont need to provide any maths, statistics or whatever, i dont need to tell you how to play "your class" and what to pay attention to.
instead, you "justify" your self entitlement driven complaint with the lack of communication...
like... seriously? you do know what a manifesto is for, right?
just asking...

i dunno, i am out for real tho, this is getting kinda too dumb imo.
hope you find fun in the league, or standard, or whatever. GG no RE

Ignoring various personal stuff - please stick with the topic and dont bloat your posts making guesses about me.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

this change makes it more powerful than before, in actually quite many circumstances...

Show it. Just saying so doesnt make it so. And without evidence or quantitative proper reasoning - whom are you going to convince? Why even post it?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

but yea, in regards of "old iterations" it is a nerf.

Where are these "new iterations"?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

and hey, i just read your OP, and have to say,
starting with the Threads title, it reeks of self entitlement and disrespect... "ey ggg, you changed something - EXPLAIN!"

You are missing the context. Which is that GGG (Chris Wilson statement about "angry reddit threads/posts") wants direct feedback.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

then, master surgeon.
you really wanna say that 7 charges on hit gained, was not broken?
oooooooooooookay...
imagine having to rely on different ways to recover life, literally unplayable game!

If you really read the OP you would know that the complaint here was about the communication or rather the lack of it. (And if it was indeed so broken - show evidence. Like HCSSF boss event participants winning by using Pathfinder.)

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SquareCubiC wrote:

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Approximately all Pathfinders get 'Nature's Boon'. So for all Pathfinders not getting 'Master Alchemist' this is a clear nerf. Right now almost no Pathfinders get 'Master Alchemist' (because its bad - they got this part right) so only by getting different nodes this can potentially be a buff.

this makes, by no means, any sense... same for your listing...

If you dont like my reasoning - do a better one.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

but as a sidenote, you again got those "stats" from poe.ninja right?

Yes. And if you have a better source - why dont you share it?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

regarding the ascendancy tho, you're literally ignoring potential flask mods...
and i really feel like you dont even want to consider those?

Which "potential flask mods" am I ignoring?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

i really dont get what your goal is...

Its right in the title, I explained it in the OP and I said it several more times already. I am complaining about the communication.

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Zrevnur wrote:

Ignoring various personal stuff - please stick with the topic and dont bloat your posts making guesses about me.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

this change makes it more powerful than before, in actually quite many circumstances...

Show it. Just saying so doesnt make it so. And without evidence or quantitative proper reasoning - whom are you going to convince? Why even post it?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

but yea, in regards of "old iterations" it is a nerf.

Where are these "new iterations"?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

and hey, i just read your OP, and have to say,
starting with the Threads title, it reeks of self entitlement and disrespect... "ey ggg, you changed something - EXPLAIN!"

You are missing the context. Which is that GGG (Chris Wilson statement about "angry reddit threads/posts") wants direct feedback.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

then, master surgeon.
you really wanna say that 7 charges on hit gained, was not broken?
oooooooooooookay...
imagine having to rely on different ways to recover life, literally unplayable game!

If you really read the OP you would know that the complaint here was about the communication or rather the lack of it. (And if it was indeed so broken - show evidence. Like HCSSF boss event participants winning by using Pathfinder.)

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SquareCubiC wrote:

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Approximately all Pathfinders get 'Nature's Boon'. So for all Pathfinders not getting 'Master Alchemist' this is a clear nerf. Right now almost no Pathfinders get 'Master Alchemist' (because its bad - they got this part right) so only by getting different nodes this can potentially be a buff.

this makes, by no means, any sense... same for your listing...

If you dont like my reasoning - do a better one.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

but as a sidenote, you again got those "stats" from poe.ninja right?

Yes. And if you have a better source - why dont you share it?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

regarding the ascendancy tho, you're literally ignoring potential flask mods...
and i really feel like you dont even want to consider those?

Which "potential flask mods" am I ignoring?

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SquareCubiC wrote:

i really dont get what your goal is...

Its right in the title, I explained it in the OP and I said it several more times already. I am complaining about the communication.

listen buddy,
• you mix direct feedback on the game experience with some crying over a manifesto.
• you ask me to share my "sources for statistics" even tho i said a couple of times that i am not paying too much respect to those, since they do not reflect ALL PLAYERS, it is irrelevant to use a statistic that excludes potentially a vast majority of the player base. and in all honesty, as i said before, poe ninja is a list of people copying people copying people... partially even abusing certain PoB flaws in terms of interactions to display a higher than actual dps... if you "trust" such a "source" and evaluate such as legit argument... i dunno man...
• you now bring hcssf into this? really? sorry, but... how awful is that comparison? you literally bring a race environment into a kind of build diversity discussion? so, you wanna tell me, that people that are actively racing would go and try some theorycrafted stuff? and potentially lose the race for that? you havent been around for too long have you?
• you really should stop acting like a defensive snowflake... you started an argument and you cannot deal with someone that argues with you, without pointing you head directly towards your flaws in your train of thought...
once again, this is the feedback forum not a "hey guys can tell me basic interactions of the game" section. you act like an entitled prick, there is nothing personal about that, this is what you do. the whole passive aggressive stuff about how you communicate is obnoxious.
you're demanding, from the very OP to our part, you act like as if you earned the right of anyone justifying to you... which is ironic, to say the least...

Ignoring all the personal stuff - please stick to the topic.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

• you ask me to share my "sources for statistics" even tho i said a couple of times that i am not paying too much respect to those, since they do not reflect ALL PLAYERS, it is irrelevant to use a statistic that excludes potentially a vast majority of the player base. and in all honesty, as i said before, poe ninja is a list of people copying people copying people... partially even abusing certain PoB flaws in terms of interactions to display a higher than actual dps... if you "trust" such a "source" and evaluate such as legit argument... i dunno man...

poe.ninja is a much better source than no source at all. And you dont have to blindly misinterpret the data.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

• you now bring hcssf into this? really? sorry, but... how awful is that comparison?

It was a fair argument to bring that into play. Because in a competitive environment players will take the best and skip the rest - see how they played DD even knowing that it was OP due to being bugged. They would have jumped on the Pathfinder Master Surgeon thing long ago - some tried IIRC but failed - if it would have been OP.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

so, you wanna tell me, that people that are actively racing would go and try some theorycrafted stuff? and potentially lose the race for that?

These statements make no sense. Many racers practice and test such things before racing. Calling something which has been in the game ~1(IIRC) year "theorycrafted" makes no sense either.

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Zrevnur wrote:

Ignoring all the personal stuff - please stick to the topic.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

• you ask me to share my "sources for statistics" even tho i said a couple of times that i am not paying too much respect to those, since they do not reflect ALL PLAYERS, it is irrelevant to use a statistic that excludes potentially a vast majority of the player base. and in all honesty, as i said before, poe ninja is a list of people copying people copying people... partially even abusing certain PoB flaws in terms of interactions to display a higher than actual dps... if you "trust" such a "source" and evaluate such as legit argument... i dunno man...

poe.ninja is a much better source than no source at all. And you dont have to blindly misinterpret the data.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

• you now bring hcssf into this? really? sorry, but... how awful is that comparison?

It was a fair argument to bring that into play. Because in a competitive environment players will take the best and skip the rest - see how they played DD even knowing that it was OP due to being bugged. They would have jumped on the Pathfinder Master Surgeon thing long ago - some tried IIRC but failed - if it would have been OP.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

so, you wanna tell me, that people that are actively racing would go and try some theorycrafted stuff? and potentially lose the race for that?

These statements make no sense. Many racers practice and test such things before racing. Calling something which has been in the game ~1(IIRC) year "theorycrafted" makes no sense either.

okay dude, once again, YOU are arguing in the way YOU do, i am sorry that i cannot blindly ignore your way of having this discussion...
whatever

so, evaluating shit data is better than no data?
i'd rather not work with statistics at all than having scuffed datasets...
but to each their own i guess...

bringing in hcssf is not a fair point lol
you compare a pretty much underused ascendancy to a racing environment... i really dont get what you wanna achieve with that, like seriously :D
plus: THEY WERE ABOUT TO CHANGE THE ASCENDANCY, HOW THE F WAS ANYONE SUPPOSED TO PRACTICE WITH THAT.
but hey, how many deadeyes, raiders or pathfinders have won any race in the past leagues?
just asking, maybe this makes you kinda rething your argument...

in all seriousness tho, i really feel like you're talking about something that you dont have, the slightest, idea of.
or maybe you do, but you dont understand what you're talking about...
you overestimate your understanding of the game and the mechanics.
how else would you try and bring up ANY ranger anscendancy in a HFSSF Race context...

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SquareCubiC wrote:

so, evaluating shit data is better than no data?
i'd rather not work with statistics at all than having scuffed datasets...
but to each their own i guess...

Most of the data is obviously valid. It doesnt fully represent the whole playerbase due to excluding those set to private and those with lower levels. There are currently 10599 characters lvl 98 and above in Kalandra. poe.ninja has 8703 of them. This is way better than what most RL statistics get as coverage. And in no way this is "shit data".

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SquareCubiC wrote:

bringing in hcssf is not a fair point lol
you compare a pretty much underused ascendancy to a racing environment... i really dont get what you wanna achieve with that, like seriously :D
plus: THEY WERE ABOUT TO CHANGE THE ASCENDANCY, HOW THE F WAS ANYONE SUPPOSED TO PRACTICE WITH THAT.

This may be a misunderstanding. Your quote: "you really wanna say that 7 charges on hit gained, was not broken?" If you meant something other than "Pathfinder Master Surgeon was OP with 7 charges" - maybe make it clear because thats how I interpreted your quote. I questioned that by bringing HCSSF races into play. Whether the Ascendancy is underused or not - what is your point? If it really was OP it would have been overused and not underused. They were about to change it - yes I wasnt talking about the new version. You implied that the old version was OP and I was responding to that.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

but hey, how many deadeyes, raiders or pathfinders have won any race in the past leagues?

Whats your point? You claimed "broken" but the facts do not back it up and I pointed that out. In fact what you just implied (no Ranger winners) counters your "broken" claim.

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SquareCubiC wrote:

just asking, maybe this makes you kinda rething your argument...

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SquareCubiC wrote:

how else would you try and bring up ANY ranger anscendancy in a HFSSF Race context...

It would be more appropriate for you to rethink your "broken" argument?