POE 3.16 - Bad League

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Aldora_the_Summoner wrote:

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rekikyo wrote:

Take stock of how many 20+ Achievement players actually vocalize a hate for this league. Then look at how many scale from 0 to 13 achievements.

That's some curious logic you've got going on there. So forum members that dislike the league have very limited interaction with the game challenges. It's almost like they don't enjoy the game and have stopped playing it! Who'd have thought!

There's a number of forum members that seem to think that any accommodations proposed for the game to increase the enjoyment of others will inevitably result in a state of decreased enjoyment for themselves. Why do proposed changes have to be a zero sum game?

I've frequently articulated that GGG needs to be better at offering scalable challenge to engage with all players. Nobody actually needs to lose out here, not even GGG.

It's about WHERE that cusp lies.

13 Challenges is about where the Story ends and Maps begin. You have an obligatory 12 challenges by the time you kill Kitava.

When has GGG EVER shaped a league around the story, and when have players ever argued that the story Acts are "the actual game?"

Both GGG and players stances are generally that the story = the tutorial.

Scourge comes on line in Maps. Not Earlier.

That's the struggle in a 15 year old system; keeping the tutorial fresh and entertaining after people have played it 20+ times.

Heist and Ritual and Incursion and Betrayal kind of toed the line of this philosophy due to the nature of their own drop pools, but even there, it was a trap: People who didn't survive maps just kept farming Harbor Bridge to use these leagues as currency or craft unlocks, to the point where GGG began level capping the events around those leagues (In Incursion and Betrayal, you stopped getting instances when you were like 12 levels over the region you were farming).

The irony is that even in those leagues, the new content offered FAR MORE in maps than in the story, especially in Heist, Betrayal, where the real end game content is level capped above 68. Farming Chaos Orbs vs Farming Exalt + items.

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Bleu42 wrote:

I'm confused, are you trying to say that BECAUSE you don't see many "20 plus achievement players (and it's 'challenge', not 'achievement') therefore everyone who has less doesn't have a legitimate opinion?

I provide to you the opposite approach; SO MANY players have typed in these forums their distain for not just this league, but the game in general, WHILE having fewer challenges shows how shallow and un-fun the game has become.

No longer can many of us even stomach getting to 24 challenges. The core pillars of the ARPG are rotten in PoE; The loot is trash; not just what you pick up off the ground, but unique items as well as boss drops. The gameplay has also suffered very much; explode the entire pack, or die. Defenses mean almost nothing, and it's dps or be slapped.

You simply cannot keep adding to a stew every day, while also trying to please everybody. You end up with either a terrible tasting stew, or water, every time.

A perfect example is WoW (and other examples, such as pokemon, hell even a ton of Zelda entries); Forcing change after change on a specific timeline in a game will ruin it.

This is the first time since I started playing before Legacy league, that I won't be playing ANY new leagues. The core of the game is ruined; the loot and the combat.

However I suspect that because I 'only' have 13 challenges, you'll assume I know nothing of the game anyway and therefore my opinion is moot.

Again; you're missing the forest for the trees.

Less than 13 'Challenges' suggests they plaintiff doesn't like replaying the story and has far less to do with the current league.

12-13 is where you beat Kitava Act 10, if you weren't rushed by an act skipper.

Which means..... they haven't played the game. They just played the story tutorial for the 20th time and are bored of the same exact replay.

One of the things that separates PoE from other aRPGS is that it resets and has seasons. These people are more comfortable in games where they never reset and level lose progress. But, it's not like GGG EVER changed this part of their product; they've always embraced the reset as the way to adapt and expand their games' offerings.

If the players were complaining at say .... 15-17 Challenges with competent build adaptation, I'd argue their complaints hold merit, because that suggests they've been grinding maps, and hit a wall, while at least trying to adapt their builds.

I personally don't care about challenges, but I've done over 300 maps so far, and I work 60 hour weeks and have a family. I can't afford a gamer life. But, I still have far more expensive gear, competent build style, and 15 challenges just from grinding what I can.

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Marthuk wrote:

A post I can respect

Thank you for your time. I'm not going to really argue on most points.

1. Krangling is bad.
I don't know what items you put in or what you consider a good mod, but in some cases, even getting Resists with a nonconsequential downside is a good mod. Keep in mind this is supposed to be used after crafting/enchanting/vaaling, so in reality even if the krangle fails and you get a resist mod with a nonconsequntial downside, it should be probably considered a success. By that definition..... I've had different results than you. Almost 2/3 of my Krangles are invariably better than the item I had before. Not many are significantly better, but almost none have been throw aways (like the -2 to gem levels)

It is worth noting: Some items have a pretty poor selection of krangle mods, whose downside is greater than its upsides. As such, the only items I'm really krangling right now is Weapons, Boots, and Gloves. Chest is too expensive to risk unless you have 10 sitting around, and Amulets generally don't have a huge list of good mods (although if I had 10 completed amulets, getting one with Ele Pen and Mana Efficiency wouldn't be bad)

2. I generally agree. Scourged items by default always have as many downsides as upsides, and the RNG makes them poor in most cases. You Can technically craft them to useable, but it takes a lot of work to do so. It's like trying to get a good Synthesized item pre Harvest. I did get a 4% Triple damage 1 handed axe yesterday with 272 Attack Damage on the upper end, but that's the first time I've seen that, and it's not 2 upsides vs 1 downside.

3. I disagree. I've been nonchalantly crafting through my Alts/Chaos/Augs because of how many are dropping (mostly on flasks, watchstones). I'd also argue your Exalt experience isn't typical. It's unfortunate, but not typical. Most people by level 92 or so have had 3-5 Ex drops naturally on maps, and about 10 by level 95. My guess? You rushed to boss content, and have been farming bosses so much that you don't realize that you've limited your exposure to map mobs/number of maps you run. I'm getting my 10 Ex by struggling and playing to beat the struggle. You've already beat it.

4. Generally agree. I think GGG wants players to have the thrill of being "godly" so they are centering all progress on the assumption people want to 1 shot screens and move on before the corpses even drop. The problem is that limits the build variety and makes people more offended when they get 1 shot to taking content too fast.

5. This is a bit of a contrived point. 1) GGG said that all the new content was designed for .01%, so that's not really something out of line with expectations. What I will say is I agree.

However.... your Blight Ravaged Example: You brought guildies into a map! Remind me what's the penalty for more players in an instance? Higher HP, More defenses, more damage from mobs. Blight Ravaged Bosses have something like 160 million life. You probably doubled that just by bringing in guildies.

6. I agree. I could personally never really come to play an EVA build, because this league seems to revolve more around blocking than actual defensive stats. I think one of my friends I often mention has the right idea: Divine Flesh. Capped Chaos res at 80 to 85% to reduce all ele damage by 50% essentially is probably more powerful than all but 2 defense types combined. Couple that with Spell Suppression and you generally only have to worry about Physical damage. Even Block builds seem to really get hurt when the stars align and the content generally hits you enough all at once to kill you. (Part of my issue is I have CWDT Frost Shield and Corrupting Blood, which when it procs effectively halves my EHP; If it happens the very second some big hits are coming, that's an RIP. But it's usually worth the effect benefit of having another layer of shield).

7. Don't give up on the krangling. You can do content. But you have to love it. Snakebite is a unique, easy to buy, and you can easily Atzoatl double corrupt, and then scourge. Eventually you'll hit something like Added Cold damage or Added Lightning Damage, maybe even a double mod. But, like with all leagues..... getting the gear perfect takes time and effort.

I'm personally amazed at your challenges while wearing pretty common unmaxed gear. I mean it. Not a single piece of gear is optimized. I always spend time optimizing for some crazy build and I could never do what you did with the gear you have.

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rekikyo wrote:

It's about WHERE that cusp lies.

13 Challenges is about where the Story ends and Maps begin. You have an obligatory 12 challenges by the time you kill Kitava.

When has GGG EVER shaped a league around the story, and when have players ever argued that the story Acts are "the actual game?"

Both GGG and players stances are generally that the story = the tutorial.

Scourge comes on line in Maps. Not Earlier.

That's the struggle in a 15 year old system; keeping the tutorial fresh and entertaining after people have played it 20+ times.

Heist and Ritual and Incursion and Betrayal kind of toed the line of this philosophy due to the nature of their own drop pools, but even there, it was a trap: People who didn't survive maps just kept farming Harbor Bridge to use these leagues as currency or craft unlocks, to the point where GGG began level capping the events around those leagues (In Incursion and Betrayal, you stopped getting instances when you were like 12 levels over the region you were farming).

The irony is that even in those leagues, the new content offered FAR MORE in maps than in the story, especially in Heist, Betrayal, where the real end game content is level capped above 68. Farming Chaos Orbs vs Farming Exalt + items.

So on one level your argument is that it's OK that the first 60 character levels are a shit experience because the game hasn't really started yet? No wonder the abandonment rate was astronomical this league, if new players initial experience is average to poor, they're never going to persist to get to the good stuff. Why can't the early levels also be rewarding.

Also, you seem to have formed the assumption that the player retention issues are about the poor skill of some players and that they don't fully understand the league.

My contention is that since 3.15, the underlying game system is so punishing and unrewarding that a significant proportion of players dumped the league. The league mechanic itself certainly hasn't helped though but I don't think it's the primary issue. The main issue is that if you're a beginner, a lower skilled player, or not able to exploit a particular element of the game your experience is often just not fun.

I don't expect you to fully comprehend or empathise with this as your posting history is consistently dismissive but it's the essence of what I believe to be the critical strategic flaw in the current state of the game. One portion of the player base is fine and don't see the problem. The other portion are no longer having fun and are justifiably disappointed. The changes from 3.15 did nothing to address the core issues and simply made problems worse.

@rekikyo

Dont wanna argue too much about it, but wanna expand on some points a little more.

1 - From my experience, most of the time the downside is far worse then the upside. And i never found a really good upside. Trading one resistance with another is not what i would call an amazing upgrade. And my point is...as a core mechanic of the league it shouldnt be this lopsided. Maybe nerf it a little if you merge it into standard, but as a main league mechanic...it should be way more rewarding. Who cares about loot coming into standard....just let them have OP gear, they earn it for playing that deserted mode.

2 - Yep, even bosses drop crappy scourged items. I feel like there should be some kind of smartloot involved.

3 - Quite on the contrary. I farmed maps and cleared all scourge, very often 250+ scourge stacks. Maybe i am just very unlucky with raw drops, but thats my experience this league.

4 - We agree, nice.

5 - For the blight-ravaged map: Since towers deactivate when youre out of a certain range, i dont know how i could beat those maps with my build, hence i did it with multiple people. I dont have multiple UE dps like the top end :D

6 - Nice that we agree on so many things.

7 - Your encouragement is nice and sure, some day i would hit a good mod on those gloves... but honestly, the league is not even close to fun enough to continue playing. I have high hopes for the next endgame expansion.

The last 2 challenges i had to buy (The feared and Deadly encounters in style), since i could not be bothered to keep farming and upgrading this league. I didnt upgrade my gear for the last 8 or so days, which is insane, considering how mediocre it is.

Whats more insane...poisonous concoction is such a nice frontloaded build...but theres really just two verys bad guides out there and not really played that much. If its not nerfed i might really push next league.

League mechanic is just extra mobs for maps, Its meh whatever. Fine more drops while farming. Game had worse and better leagues.

League drops insane ammounts of currency because of how scourge works and interacts with other league mechanics.

What I really like is that defenses finaly matter instead of just stacking dps you have to really fine tune and build your character to be tanky and still do decent damage. Its way more fun and challenging that way.

Its also really easily archiveable now to have good offense and defense because they buffed defense by a lot this league.

Forum hiccup

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+ Crafting bench no longer need unlock 2-3-4 sockets/links

Yes they do. Atleast on pc version they were just moved from delve to maps which is only slightly better if you don't care much about delve.

I am currently level 81 and still can't make four socket items or four linked items with the crafting bench. Don't know how well that is working.
By the time i get them i won't be needing them anymore.

Those recipes need to be in some acts when you need them not in maps when you are level 90.

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Marthuk wrote:

@rekikyo

Dont wanna argue too much about it, but wanna expand on some points a little more.

1 - From my experience, most of the time the downside is far worse then the upside. And i never found a really good upside. Trading one resistance with another is not what i would call an amazing upgrade. And my point is...as a core mechanic of the league it shouldnt be this lopsided. Maybe nerf it a little if you merge it into standard, but as a main league mechanic...it should be way more rewarding. Who cares about loot coming into standard....just let them have OP gear, they earn it for playing that deserted mode.

7 - Your encouragement is nice and sure, some day i would hit a good mod on those gloves... but honestly, the league is not even close to fun enough to continue playing. I have high hopes for the next endgame expansion.

I really don't think people like getting -2 Socketed gems and the resist for resist seems unrewarding and only perhaps useful on Uniques (Crystal Vault has plenty of Cold res to sacrifice for a different resist). I could like to see them be removed from the list.

Hence why I mentioned; I'm primarily using it on Weapons/Gloves/Boots.

Weapons almost always have a decent upside for some build. It's very rare that the weapon scourge is a complete contradiction or a useless item. The only roll that can really have no use is +1 Ele Damage % and Minus 88-90% Elemental. In reverse, or even +1 Elemental Damage %/-88-90% Spell damage in some cases can be considered a good roll.... if you're an attacker rather than a spell caster (wander).



These are my Poet rolls.

I called it before the league even launched.

Don't you hate being right sometimes?