A small thought on what is wrong with the game's development vision
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YomiSyn wrote:
Your stats/concerns or w/e they may be is what I would say was predictable. Sure they could have done things a lot different but they didn't. This was in fact mentioned in podcasts.
This doesn't mesh up to how Chris and Dev team reacted. In fact Chris admitted that they were shocked by the significant reaction from far more players than they expected.
So maybe you predicted this, but the team over at GGG certainly didn't, and the results of the league were devastating. To the point that Chris went on a media blitz, and even admitted they couldn't sustain a number of repeat performances from an operational standpoint.
There is no point in minimizing how bad 3.15 was.
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
- Abraham Lincoln
This is not "normal behaviour" even amongst the disgruntled, trolls, banter lovers, baiters or forum game players. It goes beyond. Very excessive....
Or, alternative reality, its healthy criticism
There you go bro.
I shortened both to highlight the key aspect(s) of what I was talking about and made a vague effort to distinguish between them. Its good to have different opinions, I like many others welcome them and enjoy reading different perspectives on different matters.
Is nice to see you moved past the phase of straight up calling people liars for telling you their opinions and/or facts and expand your thoughts. Is ok Im no snowflake and took no personal issue when faced with such things.
Yes, if they were operating purely from a make money standpoint, they would go completely overboard with P2W elements and adopt a Candy Crush mentality. That was my point. More money isn't always the ultimate goal. They clearly changed their direction with 3.15 because the game was deviating from what they wanted. People that are making a money based argument need to be careful what they wish for. Next thing you know we'll be paying for energy to be able to play very long, else we'll have to wait for our energy bar to refresh (Source: Most every freaking ARPG on the mobile market). The most successful and profitable games are not games that I personally like. Candy Crush made over a billion dollars in 2020. That doesn't mean I like it.
If you get more aggressive with p2w elements you will also lose players, and with so many games slowly releasing even in the arpg area there are many other places for players to go. Its a balancing act.
I personally rather stick to actual reality. You know the one where GGG's vision thus far grew their game and player base over a decade and reddit/forum doomers and trolls have been saying the same shit for years.
Sure, and if 3.15 was a record league (in a good way), I would bow to that argument.
However, its a record league for largest initial drop, largest drop numerically from previous leagues, large drops from running 5 league average, largest percent drop in the last 5 leagues over time (maybe longer I just didnt feel like comparing more).
2 months in we are at 18k from 116k. 15% remaining
2 months into last league, 28k down from 155k. 18% remaining
2 months into league before that, 44k from 157k, 28% remaining.
2 months into league before that, 38k left from 122k, 31% remaining.
None of that is opinion, that is just pure objective facts.
Oh boy... another steam charts scientist on the attack. Sorry, but those are far from pure objective facts.
Notice how at the 6-month zoom you can clearly see the line goes from smooth to erratic. This is because the most recent data is plotted daily, but anything older than about 3 months gets 1 data point per month and this skews things. For example, right now both June 30th and July 22nd show the 116,106 peak for 3.15 because June is now a single data plot of July's highest peak. July will eventually be converted to August's highest peak of 64,671 and August will be converted to September's peak of 28,338.
That means if you want to make a more fair comparison with the 28k/155k, 44k/157k, and 122k/38k numbers then the 2 month in peak for 3.15 is actually 28k not 18k. Quite a bit of difference, though none of that really matters because its not particularly accurate data to compare anyway. It basically lacks the obvious context like when in the month the league starts can skew both the averages and peaks for monthly snapshots, that 3.15 is the 3rd league/repeat of the Maven expansion, and that 3.15 had players sapped away at the end for D2R and New World.
Look what WoW classic did to the numbers 2 years ago.
Those numbers looked way scarier for PoE than 3.15 does.
Yes, if they were operating purely from a make money standpoint, they would go completely overboard with P2W elements and adopt a Candy Crush mentality. That was my point. More money isn't always the ultimate goal. They clearly changed their direction with 3.15 because the game was deviating from what they wanted. People that are making a money based argument need to be careful what they wish for. Next thing you know we'll be paying for energy to be able to play very long, else we'll have to wait for our energy bar to refresh (Source: Most every freaking ARPG on the mobile market). The most successful and profitable games are not games that I personally like. Candy Crush made over a billion dollars in 2020. That doesn't mean I like it.
If you get more aggressive with p2w elements you will also lose players, and with so many games slowly releasing even in the arpg area there are many other places for players to go. Its a balancing act.
Again, this isn't necessarily a player argument. Most players don't matter in a P2W model. P2W games look for specific people that spend compulsively to win. If it's purely about money, it doesn't even have to remain true to an ARPG. If it's all about money, then money drives all decisions. Not the gamer. Not the vision for the game. Just money.
GGG started with a simple mantra if I recall correctly and it involved making a hardcore game they wanted to play. It wasn't about money (at least not solely about money), It wasn't about making the next most popular game. It was purely about the game they wanted to play.
I think when a developer makes the decision to roll back things that will knowingly cause a loss of players, which will have an impact on revenue, they're demonstrating that money isn't the primary driver for them. Sure they have to make enough to keep the lights on, but they kept the lights on for years with 1/10th the player base not too long ago. They just had smaller less aggressive releases. Is that the future? We shall see how many people come back for 3.16 and how that translates to money.
I don't get the impression they'll surrender their vision and what they want for the game and go to 3.13 though.
Thanks for all the fish!
Last edited by Nubatron#4333 on Oct 14, 2021, 6:53:58 AM
I personally rather stick to actual reality. You know the one where GGG's vision thus far grew their game and player base over a decade and reddit/forum doomers and trolls have been saying the same shit for years.
Sure, and if 3.15 was a record league (in a good way), I would bow to that argument.
However, its a record league for largest initial drop, largest drop numerically from previous leagues, large drops from running 5 league average, largest percent drop in the last 5 leagues over time (maybe longer I just didnt feel like comparing more).
2 months in we are at 18k from 116k. 15% remaining
2 months into last league, 28k down from 155k. 18% remaining
2 months into league before that, 44k from 157k, 28% remaining.
2 months into league before that, 38k left from 122k, 31% remaining.
None of that is opinion, that is just pure objective facts.
Oh boy... another steam charts scientist on the attack. Sorry, but those are far from pure objective facts.
Notice how at the 6-month zoom you can clearly see the line goes from smooth to erratic. This is because the most recent data is plotted daily, but anything older than about 3 months gets 1 data point per month and this skews things. For example, right now both June 30th and July 22nd show the 116,106 peak for 3.15 because June is now a single data plot of July's highest peak. July will eventually be converted to August's highest peak of 64,671 and August will be converted to September's peak of 28,338.
That means if you want to make a more fair comparison with the 28k/155k, 44k/157k, and 122k/38k numbers then the 2 month in peak for 3.15 is actually 28k not 18k. Quite a bit of difference, though none of that really matters because its not particularly accurate data to compare anyway. It basically lacks the obvious context like when in the month the league starts can skew both the averages and peaks for monthly snapshots,
"
Hackusations wrote:
that 3.15 is the 3rd league/repeat of the Maven expansion, and that 3.15 had players sapped away at the end for D2R and New World.
Spoiler
Look what WoW classic did to the numbers 2 years ago.
Those numbers looked way scarier for PoE than 3.15 does.
Spoiler
Surely both, peaks and lows, could be attributed, in part, to cojunctural factors. But you can't deny the most important component to player interest is the game itself and what it offers in terms of entertainment.
Spoiler
"
Nubatron wrote:
"
Fhark wrote:
"
Yes, if they were operating purely from a make money standpoint, they would go completely overboard with P2W elements and adopt a Candy Crush mentality. That was my point. More money isn't always the ultimate goal. They clearly changed their direction with 3.15 because the game was deviating from what they wanted. People that are making a money based argument need to be careful what they wish for. Next thing you know we'll be paying for energy to be able to play very long, else we'll have to wait for our energy bar to refresh (Source: Most every freaking ARPG on the mobile market). The most successful and profitable games are not games that I personally like. Candy Crush made over a billion dollars in 2020. That doesn't mean I like it.
If you get more aggressive with p2w elements you will also lose players, and with so many games slowly releasing even in the arpg area there are many other places for players to go. Its a balancing act.
Again, this isn't necessarily a player argument. Most players don't matter in a P2W model. P2W games look for specific people that spend compulsively to win. If it's purely about money, it doesn't even have to remain true to an ARPG. If it's all about money, then money drives all decisions. Not the gamer. Not the vision for the game. Just money.
GGG started with a simple mantra if I recall correctly and it involved making a hardcore game they wanted to play. It wasn't about money (at least not solely about money), It wasn't about making the next most popular game. It was purely about the game they wanted to play.
I think when a developer makes the decision to roll back things that will knowingly cause a loss of players, which will have an impact on revenue, they're demonstrating that money isn't the primary driver for them. Sure they have to make enough to keep the lights on, but they kept the lights on for years with 1/10th the player base not too long ago. They just had smaller less aggressive releases. Is that the future? We shall see how many people come back for 3.16 and how that translates to money.
"
Nubatron wrote:
I don't get the impression they'll surrender their vision and what they want for the game and go to 3.13 though.
What vision are you talking about? As far as I know, the community didn't clamor for the introduction of Harvest prior to its conception. It was GGG's idea. And they put it in the game TWICE.
What vision are you talking about? As far as I know, the community didn't clamor for the introduction of Harvest prior to its conception. It was GGG's idea. And they put it in the game TWICE.
Just because you know the destination you want to get to, does not mean you know the best path. They have been trying to offer deterministic paths without going too far. Harvest League tried to make the way to get those crafts tedious through farmville like management of a plot of land. That did not even come close to slowing down the path to godlike items. They brought it back with changes, but really only addressed the farmville problem but not the godlike items being created. With 3.13 they could have renamed POE to Harvest because there was no way to play the game better. So that clearly needed to be rolled back as well.
So now we have some of Harvest and it's pretty good at giving you some control over your items, but you can't just create the best of the best. Harvest does not outshine every other avenue in the game. This is a more healthy path for POE since it's a part of the ecosystem, but does not control it.
They've tried for a long while to give deterministic ways to make items without trivializing drops and other methods to progress in the game. They've had mixed results. But just because they made mistakes along the way, including 3.13, that does not mean they don't know where they want to end up. It just means they are struggling to find the path to get there.
Thanks for all the fish!
Last edited by Nubatron#4333 on Oct 14, 2021, 8:47:34 AM
What vision are you talking about? As far as I know, the community didn't clamor for the introduction of Harvest prior to its conception. It was GGG's idea. And they put it in the game TWICE.
Just because you know the destination you want to get to, does not mean you know the best path. They have been trying to offer deterministic paths without going too far. Harvest League tried to make the way to get those crafts tedious through farmville like management of a plot of land. That did not even come close to slowing down the path to godlike items. They brought it back with changes, but really only addressed the farmville problem but not the godlike items being created. With 3.13 they could have renamed POE to Harvest because there was no way to play the game better. So that clearly needed to be rolled back as well.
So now we have some of Harvest and it's pretty good at giving you some control over your items, but you can't just create the best of the best. Harvest does not outshine every other avenue in the game. This is a more healthy path for POE since it's a part of the ecosystem, but does not control it.
They've tried for a long while to give deterministic ways to make items without trivializing drops and other methods to progress in the game. They've had mixed results. But just because they made mistakes along the way, including 3.13, that does not mean they don't know where they want to end up. It just means they are struggling to find the path to get there.
You still haven't answered my question: What's their vision?
Because, if the intended goal was/is to make the game slower and reduce power creep, they chose the opposite route to achieve that and they knew it:
What vision are you talking about? As far as I know, the community didn't clamor for the introduction of Harvest prior to its conception. It was GGG's idea. And they put it in the game TWICE.
Just because you know the destination you want to get to, does not mean you know the best path. They have been trying to offer deterministic paths without going too far. Harvest League tried to make the way to get those crafts tedious through farmville like management of a plot of land. That did not even come close to slowing down the path to godlike items. They brought it back with changes, but really only addressed the farmville problem but not the godlike items being created. With 3.13 they could have renamed POE to Harvest because there was no way to play the game better. So that clearly needed to be rolled back as well.
So now we have some of Harvest and it's pretty good at giving you some control over your items, but you can't just create the best of the best. Harvest does not outshine every other avenue in the game. This is a more healthy path for POE since it's a part of the ecosystem, but does not control it.
They've tried for a long while to give deterministic ways to make items without trivializing drops and other methods to progress in the game. They've had mixed results. But just because they made mistakes along the way, including 3.13, that does not mean they don't know where they want to end up. It just means they are struggling to find the path to get there.
You still haven't answered my question: What's their vision?
Because, if the intended goal was/is to make the game slower and reduce power creep, they chose the opposite route to achieve that and they knew it:
No. It's more like they don't know what their vision is or they change it in a whim.
Sadly, PoE has been lacking in the "vision" department since a long time ago.
There is no other schizophrenic game that manages the same lack of "vision", thankfully.
As harsh as that might sound, it is the depressing reality.
PoE's devs never seem to have enough confidence in their own content, and never were "great" at either scaling and/or providing a sane and satisfying "danger vs reward" level on all fronts: loot, EXP and "fun".
As they focus on complexity for the sake of complexity, and RNG upon RNG layers abounding today more than ever, of course any "solution" that would let you "edit" the desired outcome with a certain outcome WILL FELL TOO POWERFUL and/or REWARDING.
What PoE's devs forgot was how to add a real purpose to the grind, to the journey, to the damn experience.
This way, they ended up between "a rock and a hard place" and whatever they will choose, they will fail as they always failed before.
The only perfect solution would have been to never get stuck in the current situation and to have a couple of back-up plans at hand that won't backfire. They also have the option to think outside the box, though they might keep that avenue for "PoE 2", because a fresh-er start would be easier that way...
Sadly, PoE needs hard decisions and devs that will "stick to their guns come Hell or high-water", and we seem to lack the proper backbone these days, both us as players that feel to "easily entitled" and the devs, "that always knew best and could do no wrong"...
It's sad to observe the squandered potential and the ineptitude that governs the "vision/s"...
Alas, it can still be improved... Someday... Somehow... PoE might fully reach it's true potential...
Until then, we can only observe the slow advancements, next to the side and the back-steps that seem to always accompany them...
PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"...
Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days...
Last edited by sofocle10000#6408 on Oct 14, 2021, 2:07:56 PM
Again, this isn't necessarily a player argument. Most players don't matter in a P2W model. P2W games look for specific people that spend compulsively to win. If it's purely about money, it doesn't even have to remain true to an ARPG. If it's all about money, then money drives all decisions. Not the gamer. Not the vision for the game. Just money.
GGG started with a simple mantra if I recall correctly and it involved making a hardcore game they wanted to play. It wasn't about money (at least not solely about money), It wasn't about making the next most popular game. It was purely about the game they wanted to play.
I think when a developer makes the decision to roll back things that will knowingly cause a loss of players, which will have an impact on revenue, they're demonstrating that money isn't the primary driver for them. Sure they have to make enough to keep the lights on, but they kept the lights on for years with 1/10th the player base not too long ago. They just had smaller less aggressive releases. Is that the future? We shall see how many people come back for 3.16 and how that translates to money.
I don't get the impression they'll surrender their vision and what they want for the game and go to 3.13 though.
Wargaming had a campaign not long ago to bring back old players. The URL for the link they used for the campaign had _whales at the end, for all to see.
It's generally a few people out of the total players that spend money and generate the revenue.
I don't think these decisions by GGG mean they don't care about the money, I think it instead means they're out of touch with the players want, or else too stubborn to deviate from their vision even if it means players leave. It doesn't get more out of touch than using _whales in your URL though lol.
