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I share the former mentioned opinion that it is rather pay to play. To "win" in PoE means having superb knowledge of game mechanics, skill, time investment, preparation before a new league, probably training runs, potentially a group, etc.
Give someone all the stash tab he wants - he will still not get anything done compared to the top end players. The stash tabs just enable you to play effectively when it comes to the economic part of the game in a trade-environment. That for me is clearly not pay ton win, especially compared to the typical cacha-game where the top whales always have the best stuff cause they simply buy it.
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Posted byVennto#1610on Sep 14, 2021, 5:15:03 PM
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ajo wrote:
With an upfront cost we would not have all this bloat and micromanagement that essentially means 'cough up the dough'.
You innocence is adorable! Plenty of games these days have both up front costs AND continuous monetization. Including various levels of pay-to-win.
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ajo wrote:
You're not Boem. -_-
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Posted byExile009#1139on Sep 14, 2021, 11:13:20 PMOn Probation
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aggromagnet wrote:
I have 190 p2w stash tabs. Been waiting for years to find out what I win by having them.
LOLLL
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Posted byShadyC#1006on Sep 14, 2021, 11:40:44 PM
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Pay to grind XD
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Posted byzidders#6748on Sep 15, 2021, 2:03:50 AM
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Exile009 wrote:
You innocence is adorable! Plenty of games these days have both up front costs AND continuous monetization. Including various levels of pay-to-win.
Sure. For total idiots and specifically made to exploit them.
Is that relevant here ?
obey - consume - marry and reproduce - submit - watch t.v. - trust the internet - conform - do not question authority - sleep - buy - do not think - die
__________________________________________________________________________
Force always attracts men of low morality. - Albert Einstein Last edited by ___Hengist___#0189 on Sep 15, 2021, 5:52:43 AM
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Posted by___Hengist___#0189on Sep 15, 2021, 5:48:47 AM
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ExiledSarin wrote:
PoE is absolutely pay2win.
I admit, I'm a freeloader, I haven't sunk a cent in this game (directly, not counting electricity and internet bills). But a friend lets me use a few tabs in his guild, and without those, I would have thrown in a towel long ago.
In a sane world, this would have ended all debate.
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Nubatron wrote:
These threads always devolve into the same false dilemma: P2W or F2P.
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Nubatron wrote:
A person who spends $60 will have a noticeable advantage over someone who spends $0, especially in a trade league. A person who spends $6000 will have a negligible advantage over someone that spends $60; if any at all.
That is not a false dichotomy, it is you trying to do mental gymnastics to defend an indefensible position.
Let's say there are two places to eat that Bob is aware of. The first is a nightclub that has both a cover charge to enter and a bar and grill where you can order food for an additional charge. The second is an all-you-can-eat buffet — after you pay the fee to get in, you can eat as much as you want for no additional charge. If Bob says that the second of these can be accurately described as "free food," Bob is full of shit.
PoE is pay to win. The standard for this is to try paying NOTHING and seeing what your experience is like. You admit openly that PoE fails this standard. Could it be "even more pay to win"? Maybe. But the existence of darker shades of gray doesn't make a gray into white.
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Alphadan wrote:
you are so naive, bro.
stash sales have nothing to be with the P2W, the real trouble comes with the CURRENCY market they run in the background.
why do you think they are pushing the difficulty harder and harder even though the best leagues for the community were those that were rewarding it doesn't make any sense to push the difficulty so much in a game where a league only last 3 months and also where a large part of the user base never come close to end game, this is the biggest incentive they have to push the difficulty.
think about it
1 generate currency is free when you control the database
2 is not Ilegal
3 its not against TOS (when they do)
the only drawback is the community won't like it at all if they run it openly so why not run in the background?
I know a bunch of idiots that would not expend a penny in skins or stashes but would expend 2k in gear.
I can live with it when is moderated but when is the only objective of the development I'm quite done with it.
You are the one who is in deep denial. You want to believe that people who would engage in real money transactions for currency to trade for gear are dealing with some kind of unofficial GGG affiliate. But that shit isn't the truth. The truth is that your "idiots" are giving money to botters who maliciously hack this game and inflate its economy, giving money to people who do not build but who corrupt games. You believe what you believe because you don't want to believe that your "idiots" are enabling evil, but that's exactly what they're doing.
You should report them, and your "idiot" friends should be permanently banned. Which GGG will do in a heartbeat, because they are NOT paying customers of GGG.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted.
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Posted byScrotieMcB#2697on Sep 15, 2021, 5:54:34 AM
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ScrotieMcB wrote:
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ExiledSarin wrote:
PoE is absolutely pay2win.
I admit, I'm a freeloader, I haven't sunk a cent in this game (directly, not counting electricity and internet bills). But a friend lets me use a few tabs in his guild, and without those, I would have thrown in a towel long ago.
In a sane world, this would have ended all debate.
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Nubatron wrote:
These threads always devolve into the same false dilemma: P2W or F2P.
"
Nubatron wrote:
A person who spends $60 will have a noticeable advantage over someone who spends $0, especially in a trade league. A person who spends $6000 will have a negligible advantage over someone that spends $60; if any at all.
That is not a false dichotomy, it is you trying to do mental gymnastics to defend an indefensible position.
Let's say there are two places to eat that Bob is aware of. The first is a nightclub that has both a cover charge to enter and a bar and grill where you can order food for an additional charge. The second is an all-you-can-eat buffet — after you pay the fee to get in, you can eat as much as you want for no additional charge. If Bob says that the second of these can be accurately described as "free food," Bob is full of shit.
PoE is pay to win. The standard for this is to try paying NOTHING and seeing what your experience is like. You admit openly that PoE fails this standard. Could it be "even more pay to win"? Maybe. But the existence of darker shades of gray doesn't make a gray into white.
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Alphadan wrote:
you are so naive, bro.
stash sales have nothing to be with the P2W, the real trouble comes with the CURRENCY market they run in the background.
why do you think they are pushing the difficulty harder and harder even though the best leagues for the community were those that were rewarding it doesn't make any sense to push the difficulty so much in a game where a league only last 3 months and also where a large part of the user base never come close to end game, this is the biggest incentive they have to push the difficulty.
think about it
1 generate currency is free when you control the database
2 is not Ilegal
3 its not against TOS (when they do)
the only drawback is the community won't like it at all if they run it openly so why not run in the background?
I know a bunch of idiots that would not expend a penny in skins or stashes but would expend 2k in gear.
I can live with it when is moderated but when is the only objective of the development I'm quite done with it.
You are the one who is in deep denial. You want to believe that people who would engage in real money transactions for currency to trade for gear are dealing with some kind of unofficial GGG affiliate. But that shit isn't the truth. The truth is that your "idiots" are giving money to botters who maliciously hack this game and inflate its economy, giving money to people who do not build but who corrupt games. You believe what you believe because you don't want to believe that your "idiots" are enabling evil, but that's exactly what they're doing.
You should report them, and your "idiot" friends should be permanently banned. Which GGG will do in a heartbeat, because they are NOT paying customers of GGG.
In your own way, you've proven my point. Pulling things out of context doesn't somehow change my point. There is an ocean between The worst versions of P2W and the most ethical of F2P. GGG is wrong to say they're F2P, or at least somewhat dishonest. Can you play the game completely for free? Absolutely. But it's also a huge inconvenience.
They should change their label from F2P to the most extensive demo offered in the ARPG genre (that I'm aware of), with an option to buy that is approximately the same as any other AAA game. The most ethical part of their monetization model is that once you buy it, you most likely won't need to spend another dime even though you get a free expansion every 3 months.
That is why the game falls more into a pay to play model. But let's devolve further into the false dilemma between only two choices if you like.
Thanks for all the fish! Last edited by Nubatron#4333 on Sep 15, 2021, 6:14:32 AM
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Posted byNubatron#4333on Sep 15, 2021, 6:13:59 AM
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I wouldn't call it p2w because there was a guy who reached level 100 first with the 4 basic tabs. Nevertheless, the game is very uncomfortable without extra tabs considering how much loot it has. Even then you can find workarounds like creating mule accounts.
Anyhow I find the pricing model very fair and ethical. I spent maybe 60$ in my 3 years of playing which is a price of a brand new AAA game. And I feel that I even spent too much - I could easily drop fossil tab, essence tab and a few regular tabs and still do just fine. And frankly 60$ seems like a robbery for such a gorgeous game where you can easily spend thousands of hours.
And I appreciate GGG's pricing model even more when I think of games that label themselves as 'f2p', but can easily suck thousands of dollars from you through exp boosts and other stuff that directly impacts your gameplay/game power - yes, I'm looking at you Korean MMOs/MMORPGs. Stay away from Korean games, kids.
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Posted byesostaks#6761on Sep 15, 2021, 7:53:02 AM
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ajo wrote:
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Exile009 wrote:
Plenty of games these days have both up front costs AND continuous monetization. Including various levels of pay-to-win.
So it's impossible to be overweight when there are obese people to point at?
Now you're just changing the argument. That's disingenuous.
You claimed "With an upfront cost we would not have all this bloat and micromanagement that essentially means 'cough up the dough'."
I showed that was demonstrably false. PoE could very well still be 'overweight', to use your new metaphor, even if it had an upfront cost - just as so many other games already are. Don't try switching tracks now. It just makes you look weak.
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Posted byExile009#1139on Sep 15, 2021, 8:06:20 AMOn Probation
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___Hengist___ wrote:
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Exile009 wrote:
You innocence is adorable! Plenty of games these days have both up front costs AND continuous monetization. Including various levels of pay-to-win.
Sure. For total idiots and specifically made to exploit them.
Is that relevant here ?
Yes, because it proves this wrong -
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ajo wrote:
With an upfront cost we would not have all this bloat and micromanagement that essentially means 'cough up the dough'.
That was an entirely speculative claim, presented as a certainty. It's telling that they've chosen to try pretending their argument was something else now...
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Posted byExile009#1139on Sep 15, 2021, 8:10:14 AMOn Probation
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