I'm here to defend PoE against any accusations of being a "pay to win" game

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Aynix wrote:

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Exile009 wrote:

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Aynix wrote:

Isnt Tales of Arise single player "offline" game? How can it be even considered P2W?

Who says offline games can't be P2W? If you can pay for some boost or the other it still qualifies (of course what counts as a 'boost' is a matter of debate, which is what people have been arguing over in this thread, but suffice to say it doesn't intrinsically apply only to online games). Games don't have to be online or competitive (which is what I think where your argument was going) in order to be P2W. PoE isn't competitive either and yet it gets accused of being P2W often enough, which is why this thread exists in the first place. Of course if your argument wasn't about competition, but some other aspect of being an online game that I've missed, then feel free to correct me and explain what your real argument is.

I do. If its offline, there is no winning. Its just "pay to skip the game". Its not winning.

So what're you 'winning' in PoE, assuming it had paid power boosts or whatever, just by virtue of it being online? And not during races or other competitions mind, but in the regular game i.e. just because you play it online.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Stash tabs are pay to win. They're also a permanent, diminishing returns purchase, which makes the p2w more palatable — but classy p2w is still p2w.

im starting to wondering if you know the true meaning of p2w and p2p

You start to understand. PoE is not P2W either, because you cant win in here. PoE is pretty much single player game with online "economy". The only thing that would be truly P2W in PoE would be some kind of extra drop scroll.

PWMSTW
Players With More Stash Tab Win

how much do you sell per / hour?

which I have never seen a streamer with https://livesplit.org/
and timing how much do you sell in 1 hour.

some youtubers have quad tabs from 1c to 1 mirror

OP look at it from this angle and if you like to use your brain you would have to change your mind:

Game where you can buy immortality, instant kill, or "you won" pernament picture does get released tomorrow.

Following your logic the p2w example you gave us in OP would not be p2w anymore because something much more p2w exists now.


We can do this forever, game that has p2w immortality, instant kill is released. It is not p2w because new p2w game allows you to edit map, ban players and order subway sandwiches from the ingame store.


^ that is not p2w because new game that got released allow you to have 1 of God's powers

^not p2w because even newer game allows you to have 2.....

^not p2w because you can have all god's powers

^not p2w because new game allows you to have 200% more power than is god's power(smaller and bigger infinities lol)

^not p2w even newer game allows you to have 1000% more power than god!...


No dude, just because there can be always something more or worse does not mean that the first instance did not match the definition.
which is "advantage over p2w players"
I'm myself fine with cosmetic items being there (those are p2w too in some games for example fps army shooters because you can have camo that hides your player model better from enemy example:pure white camo for 100 dollars in snow map) Here pvp is not so important and monsters register your presence just fine even when you use cosmetic items. Sure you can have better visibility because of skill skins(especially those that offer color change) but i'll let that slide.

Stashes offer direct economic advantage, you can sell from them without installing potential viruses and token grabbers+do it quicker and comfier. Allows you to do recipes(especially chaos one which is single thing that makes "pros" have 1000x better items in first 3 days and snowballs from there) but other stuff too, for example Loreweave and temple recipes that need hybrid armor to create shadowstitch(those cost up to 500exalts)

What is my average drop? 1alch orb per map. What is average drop per map of someone able to do recipes? 4chaos(it is not 6chaos because you do not get all the items needed on average)

Even in t16 maps i drop jack poop 99.99% of time.

So imagine running like 10 alched t1 maps and be at like 20chaos minimum
while i gotta run 50 of them to get 1 chaos so i can do my first item flip :^D



PoE is not extreme end of p2w, but it would be dishonest to say it has none. The difference for player that knows how to recipe/trade is actually something like having always 40% more dps.


I would never have hh from league if i did not buy premium tabs myself. It is single thing that allowed me to go from 10 to 50ex scrub to 100 to 1000ex scrub

I did not play this current league much but still i had fine gear even there.
(low life ball miner) and i gotta thank my stash tabs again for that.

It would be pretty dishonest to say that PoE isn't P2W.
Even most of the arguments in the first post are defending how lightly P2W it is, instead of proving that it's not.

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IllustrativeCapital wrote:

It would be pretty dishonest to say that PoE isn't P2W

Thats....not a good summary.

In fact I'm still unsure what is exactly "won" in PoE, and how stash tabs help get you there anyways.