Crafting in this game is bad and it is base on 1990 standards

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cpurdy777 wrote:

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firenovix wrote:

If you're a person who is playing for only 2 hours a day, both trading and crafting will be difficult no matter what is changed as you're not on enough to get currency.

You also wouldn't even know the impact Harvest had on the economy, and to be honest as a person who delved into crafting pre-harvest I absolutely hated the Harvest crafting as it devalued everything people put their hard work into prior to it. It also made other forms of crafting obsolete, aside from possibly alt spamming, Exalts became nothing but a trading currency that you may as well just renamed to gold, nobody used it for crafting anymore aside from on a work bench.

I used more exalts to directly slam items in harvest than I have in every other league combined, and I've played a lot of leagues and had more exalts than I could use. Without harvest, slamming exalts is just a crapshoot outside of crafting +1 gems or other niche cases, whereas in harvest you can actually mitigate risk and continually try, rather than just "close your eyes" and ruin an item, then try again with 200 ex and sell the failed "crafts." Crafting without harvest was only devalued by harvest because it was fucking terrible, and any decent system shows how much better it could be than the garbage brute-forcing "crafting" money machine we had before.

Why would you ever use an exalt to slam something during Harvest, using Harvest crafts didn't cost currency and you had add/remove. Exalting to slam something was completely pointless so I don't understand how you slammed more things then any other league combined. If you were then you were doing things very wrong.

You also hated the way it was before Harvest because you didn't focus on crafting before it as you didn't like the system or the results and gave up and resorted to just trading, you're one of those Harvest andies like everyone over on Reddit. Harvest wasn't a "decent" system, it was a crap shoot that ruined the game. An aRPG with randomized loot shouldn't have a system to target craft what you wanted, it should be RNG.
Idk about all other people but when I got a god tier Harvest item, I honestly didn't care, didn't feel ANY sense of accomplishment as if I just got something really rare and hard to get. The system made things far to easy and didn't belong in an aRPG. If it remained how it was it would of honestly killed the game in the long run, if you're able to get the perfect gear what reason is there to play after that point.

I expect you'll reply to this and reject everything I've said but when it comes to Harvest lovers (reddit andies) I honestly couldn't care.

When you slam at least 1 Ex on an Level 86 Item and you get +1 to Life is so much Fun....

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

no not really, the common user rarely trades.


it will almost always be cheaper to buy something than craft it, because if it were cheaper to craft it no one would buy things, and then people who have things they dont need would drop their prices because selling it for something is better than keeping it for nothing. so the market will always drop below the cost of the craft unless the craft is unknown to the wider public.

what you describe will always be true no matter what they do to crafting, so theres no point even talking about it like its a variable that could be changed.

Actually most games not stuck in the 1990s have an auction house with a listing fee, so that there is a sales opportunity cost, which balances what you are saying.

In the current system though, I agree with what you are saying, to an extent. There is a time and inconvenience cost to trading, which limits what is available, especially after the first two weeks in the league.

Its (another) odd design choice to build around 2 weeks out of every three months, to limit trade by annoyance rather than a flat listing fee, to make it so crafting is always worse than trading (as you said, by design).

Doesnt make a lot of sense to me.

theres nothing 1990s about this game, i lived and gamed through the entire 90s, there were no games like this, there were no trade environments like this, there were no crafting mechanics like this, none of this existed.

look how basic diablo 2 is, no crafting like this, no endgame systems at all essentially, no listing and searching items the way we can here, none of this stuff existed in diablo 2 that game was child level basic compared to poe and had none of the features poe has in these areas.

diablo 2 released in the year 2000.



listing fees dont change anything because its a buyer perspective, its got nothing to do with the seller. if i can craft something for a price then you cannot sell me the thing for more than it costs me to craft it. If i can craft it for 10 coins i wont buy your one unless its 9 coins or less. i dont care if you have to pay a 2 coin listing fee, thats your worry, if you want to sell it you have to be willing to accept 7 coins with 2 lost to the fee or you wont sell the item. i dont need your item, i can craft it, you have to make it worthwhile for me to buy yours rather than just click the button and craft it myself.

if something can be crafted the seller has no power, they have to undercut to make the sale and accept whatever they can get for the item. its a completely buyer driven situation.

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firenovix wrote:

If you're a person who is playing for only 2 hours a day, both trading and crafting will be difficult no matter what is changed as you're not on enough to get currency.

well you can throw an alch or an essence on a white item base, and then socket it properly, and then bench a master mod onto it and use the item. thats not difficult.

people craft all the time, its just like Xtorma says, what crafting are we talking about? if you play a few hours here and there you cant craft mirror tier gear. good, you shouldnt be able to, you should never even be able to afford to buy mirror tier gear. if someone playing really small amounts of hours can get the best tiers of gear the item system has failed.

but people roll their flasks, roll jewels, roll maps, they socket gear, they essence, alch, sometimes chaos things, they bench gear, they do bestiary crafts, they master craft most things they wear, enchant hats/gloves/boots/flasks/weapons/amulets, they bless implicits, add quality, people craft tons, almost every item they ever use has been touched by crafting in some way even if theyre a very casual endgame player.


so crafting really good gear will be hard or impossible for those players, for sure. but they still craft every day right? in some shape or form they craft all the time.

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firenovix wrote:

Why would you ever use an exalt to slam something during Harvest, using Harvest crafts didn't cost currency and you had add/remove. Exalting to slam something was completely pointless so I don't understand how you slammed more things then any other league combined. If you were then you were doing things very wrong.

You also hated the way it was before Harvest because you didn't focus on crafting before it as you didn't like the system or the results and gave up and resorted to just trading, you're one of those Harvest andies like everyone over on Reddit. Harvest wasn't a "decent" system, it was a crap shoot that ruined the game. An aRPG with randomized loot shouldn't have a system to target craft what you wanted, it should be RNG.
Idk about all other people but when I got a god tier Harvest item, I honestly didn't care, didn't feel ANY sense of accomplishment as if I just got something really rare and hard to get. The system made things far to easy and didn't belong in an aRPG. If it remained how it was it would of honestly killed the game in the long run, if you're able to get the perfect gear what reason is there to play after that point.

I expect you'll reply to this and reject everything I've said but when it comes to Harvest lovers (reddit andies) I honestly couldn't care.

You use exalts to slam stuff that did not have a tag for harvest targeted exalts, have you ever actually crafted?

I don't use reddit, but they complained about harvest constantly with much the same rhetoric as you, ironically.

Impressive how little you care after typing paragraphs of emotional diatribe right?

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

theres nothing 1990s about this game, i lived and gamed through the entire 90s, there were no games like this, there were no trade environments like this, there were no crafting mechanics like this, none of this existed.
___




listing fees dont change anything because its a buyer perspective, its got nothing to do with the seller. if i can craft something for a price then you cannot sell me the thing for more than it costs me to craft it. If i can craft it for 10 coins i wont buy your one unless its 9 coins or less. i dont care if you have to pay a 2 coin listing fee, thats your worry, if you want to sell it you have to be willing to accept 7 coins with 2 lost to the fee or you wont sell the item. i dont need your item, i can craft it, you have to make it worthwhile for me to buy yours rather than just click the button and craft it myself.

if something can be crafted the seller has no power, they have to undercut to make the sale and accept whatever they can get for the item. its a completely buyer driven situation.

Everquest was similar to this, you had to both be online at the same time, and physically meet up to initiate the trade.

Then they went to an AH system, and you could leave your vendor up overnight while it sold items for you at prices you specified.



Listing fees change the math. Imagine you can craft something for 10c on average (but sometimes 5 and sometimes 15), and it takes 2c to list it. So sellers will sell it for 13c minimum. Buyers have the choice of collecting mats, going through the crafting process, gambling that they dont get screwed by RNG, or they can just outright buy it for a 3c premium.

In that case, there is a minor reward for crafting on average over buying, rewarding players for interacting with the game.

In PoE, you were right, there is no listing cost or fee, so trading will ALWAYS be better than crafting. That doesn't make a ton of sense in a game that supposedly doesnt want you to trade that much.

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firenovix wrote:

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cpurdy777 wrote:

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firenovix wrote:

If you're a person who is playing for only 2 hours a day, both trading and crafting will be difficult no matter what is changed as you're not on enough to get currency.

You also wouldn't even know the impact Harvest had on the economy, and to be honest as a person who delved into crafting pre-harvest I absolutely hated the Harvest crafting as it devalued everything people put their hard work into prior to it. It also made other forms of crafting obsolete, aside from possibly alt spamming, Exalts became nothing but a trading currency that you may as well just renamed to gold, nobody used it for crafting anymore aside from on a work bench.

I used more exalts to directly slam items in harvest than I have in every other league combined, and I've played a lot of leagues and had more exalts than I could use. Without harvest, slamming exalts is just a crapshoot outside of crafting +1 gems or other niche cases, whereas in harvest you can actually mitigate risk and continually try, rather than just "close your eyes" and ruin an item, then try again with 200 ex and sell the failed "crafts." Crafting without harvest was only devalued by harvest because it was fucking terrible, and any decent system shows how much better it could be than the garbage brute-forcing "crafting" money machine we had before.

Why would you ever use an exalt to slam something during Harvest, using Harvest crafts didn't cost currency and you had add/remove. Exalting to slam something was completely pointless so I don't understand how you slammed more things then any other league combined. If you were then you were doing things very wrong.

You also hated the way it was before Harvest because you didn't focus on crafting before it as you didn't like the system or the results and gave up and resorted to just trading, you're one of those Harvest andies like everyone over on Reddit. Harvest wasn't a "decent" system, it was a crap shoot that ruined the game. An aRPG with randomized loot shouldn't have a system to target craft what you wanted, it should be RNG.
Idk about all other people but when I got a god tier Harvest item, I honestly didn't care, didn't feel ANY sense of accomplishment as if I just got something really rare and hard to get. The system made things far to easy and didn't belong in an aRPG. If it remained how it was it would of honestly killed the game in the long run, if you're able to get the perfect gear what reason is there to play after that point.

I expect you'll reply to this and reject everything I've said but when it comes to Harvest lovers (reddit andies) I honestly couldn't care.

I used quiet all craftings methods in 3.13, and yes, I slammed exalts - and I was very happy to craft great items myself

Nowadays i use exalts only for benching and locking suff/pref to reforge. I cant afford random slams, I cant brick my items

I slammed couple of exa for luls this league - got garbage like t2 rarity and reflect phys to enemy

Only 0.1%, shady business and mirror shops benefit from current crafting, such a shame for ggg to support them...

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galuf wrote:

People still find their way dude. Yesterday I sold a maven and awakened orb to some dude and he showed me his items. He crafted an almost mirror tier minion wand(fractured minion double damage, +2, minion speed, trigger) and aura stacker boots himself in a day, we debated a bit and then I understood that once again I was way way not on par with crafting meta, that I'm clueless as f.

Both of his items, he crafted them himself, we are talking about 100ex+ value per item(30-40ex investment total if I had to give a rough estimate) and both processes had nothing in common while the process was pretty much streamlined for both. With a big variance on the outcome of one with double influence but he still would have used it if it was "botched" a bit.

What I'm trying to say here, is that PoE crafting, even atm where we miss harvest as it was in 3.13(and that imho we should still have), is a well oiled machine that is complex enough to look daunting/unplayable for low skill players and gg make it rain for people who know what to do with it, and it is designed this way.

Throw enough currency at an item and you will inevitbly get what you want. That's the problem with crafting in this game.
The problem is that the more currency you throw on an item, the LESS RNG you will have. Cheap items require more RNG, cheap items are basically gambling while crafting high end items are more deterministic. This is a massive problem in the game.

Also, just a quick comment on the dudes crafts. The wand you describe is nowhere near mirror tier. Guessing he fractured 66% minion dmg and double dmg, used some 4 socket resonators and got +2 minion skills and some minion attack speed while bench crafting trigger. Honestly, that's a very cheap and easy wand to make. The expensive part is the fracture. Everything else is cheap.
It's nowhere near mirror tier. A proper mirror tierwand would have 40% hatred effect as a suffix. That's a redeemer mod and you can't get influenced mods on fractured items. Anyone who buys that wand for more than 60 ex is probably scamming themselves.

I made a 9-link minion helm in Heist when Harvest didn't exist. It was my league project and required meta crafting.

It cost me 1400 exalted Orbs to craft that helm and it's the last time I'm ever metacrafting an item ever again. This type of crafting is the opposite of fun, it's misreble. The feeling of getting close and then having to rely on complete RNG exalted Orbs slams, fail, and then restart the process all over again makes you want to quit the game. That's bad game design.

Crafting in this game should be fun, not frustrating. The only ones who truly enjoy crafting is profitcrafters and rich people. Majority of people don't have enough money to craft items for themselves. They can't afford to throw all their currency gathered over a weekend on gambling for an item that you may not get. That's why majority of people just farm and buy items straight from trade because that's the only way they can ensure they get the exact items they need.

The crafting system in this game needs massive work. Very few people engage with it. The market follows a simple supply and demand correlation. The reason why crafters are the richest people in the game is because they literally are the only one crafting. No one else is crafting which is why these hideoutwarriors are able to charge massive premiums.
While the system is pretty confusing and the barrier for entry is big, that's not the main reason why people aren't crafting. I believe the main reason people aren't crafting is because there's only two real systems behind it. Either:
1. Gamble and hope you hit the jackpot.
2. Throw infinite amounts of currency until you get what you want.

Regular players hate gambling and don't have the currency to craft the gear they need so simply, the don't craft anything. They buy all they need from trade.

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Deadandlivin wrote:

They buy all they need from trade.

And that's how it's supposed to be in the 21st century.

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trixxar wrote:

In PoE, you were right, there is no listing cost or fee, so trading will ALWAYS be better than crafting. That doesn't make a ton of sense in a game that supposedly doesnt want you to trade that much.

Sorry for jumping in the middle, but it's not only better than crafting. More specifically, there are methods that are simply nonviable without first trading for them, such as Harvest crafts.

So even crafts are locked behind trading for them first, not just the end product.

In other words, if an average player (and no, I'm not talking to Mr. Outlier at forums here) stumbled upon PoE and he likes crafting games rather than trading games, sucks to be him.