Chris on Ziz Harvest
" Who said that? Chris Wilson specifically said that they nerfed Harvest because of the top end, not because of the mid-tier crafting. I mean, it obviously led to min-maxing (big surprise there), but that wasn't the goal. It still does that, and yes, it is dangerous, and yes, 2ex is way too cheap, but also yes, it almost exclusively benefits the very top end of players now. It could serve the purpose of being an equalizer, for example by limiting the item level that can be crafted on to 80, or disallowing it to be used on items that have any T1 mods. But it isn't. Most people that miss Harvest don't want to craft perfect items. They want to craft items that close the gap to the top-end players the gameplay is balanced around, in order to be able to participate in said gameplay. Remove Horticrafting station storage limit.
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" i dont think this is being fair to what chris actually said. chris stated that he doesnt know if the exact balance of harvest was correct, and he was just making the case that it should be super rare. he said he will refer the points to the balance team and they may turn around and say yes, augment harvest mods should be 4x more common than they are now. his statement about trading it easily was factually correct. he didnt say it wouldnt be made more accessible, he simply said it needed to be hard to access and hard to trade, and both those are correct, reasonable statements from a game balance point of view. so many posts in this thread are incredibly unfair to chris, misrepresent him as a person, as a game designer, misrepresent what he has said and his part in the design and balance of poe. chris doesnt need to be any more in touch than he is, he runs the company he doesnt make all the design changes and decisions, he has nothing to do with setting the exact spawn rate of a given harvest craft. he is simply part of a discussion with the people who set these rates where they all agree it should be very rare. then they go off and actually design the exact maths of the game while chris goes and makes sure the mortgage payments on the offices are being paid and if the company is properly complying with the new trade laws in 3 of the countries they sell mtx in. hes not the guy holding a 2 hour roundtable discussion on if a lvl20 swift affliction support should give 39% or 40% more damage. trying to pin him on the exact maths of the game or trying to pin the exact maths on him is just an incorrect way of looking at the situation. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)
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" Fundamentally disagree it gave the extremely dedicated joe access to 8/10 gear. It gave the average joe access to 6/10 gear without trading. It was cut because a few super degenerates were making 10/10s with a ton of trading involved. It 100% did fix items because it let you fix the 2/10 items you found on the ground with a little effort. Harvest did the opposite thing it made finding items exciting for the first time in the game since people learned what items looked like. It didn't really shed any light on PoE's shortcommings, we knew what they were the whole time. Items have too many bad mods for any particular build and there's no way to fix them outside of Harvest. Sockets, resistences, and just tons of mods that don't fit builds generically sound cool (well resistences don't even sound cool) but they also make finding items bad. The thing it should have highlighted for GGG that it just didn't is that items have value not because they're tradeable, it's that you might want to equip them, and that's what Harvest added to the game, the idea that you might want to equip an item went way up. |
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There is way to fix everything, it just involves risk. The entire philosophy of this game is based around this idea of risk vs reward. 3.13 harvest was a direct contradiction to that, offering extremely powerful crafting with little to no downside. It had no place in this game.
Also as a long time player of this game I firmly believe that 10/10 gear is not needed to tackle any content in the game, everything can be done on 7/10 gear. 10/10 gear is still achievable by that 0.01% of extremely dedicated players and that lets them trivialize content, which is as it should be. |
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Harvest is literally Pandora's Box they opened. Items were made there that shouldn't have been possible in this game. In my opinion, they should just delete Harvest.
Heart of Purity
Awarded 'Silverblade' to Talent Competition Winner 2020. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDFO4E5OKSE POE 2 is designed primarily for console. |
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" By that argument, trade and flipping has no place in this game. It is an even more direct contradiction to risk vs. reward. Trading has essentially zero risk, you don't even get into contact with monsters, yet the rewards, if done cleverly, are immense. " Totally agree, but with typical effort, at least with my typical effort, 7/10 items aren't possible. 2/10 to 3/10 is maybe possible, everything else is way beyond reach. That's the real issue - too much power in items, too hard to acquire 7/10 items. Harvest did fix that (while admittedly introducing other problems, problems that I personally don't care about, but some people do, so...). Remove Horticrafting station storage limit.
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" OP here. At least some people are staying on topic. This is not supposed to be a thread about the pros and cons of harvest. That never came up in my original post. It is strictly about the way that Chris represented it in the podcast. Yes, he did rationally discuss the pros and cons about making the crafts tradeable. However, that is a no-brainer argument that I feel he was just trying to fill time with and express that it's not as simple as flipping a switch and making the crafts tradeable. Yeah, no duh. However, as the developer of a game, that's kinda important. The subtext that I heard was, it's more work, and we're not willing to do it. We're done with it. He said that he's fine with people trading on discord. And that's the other troubling thing with the development of this game. They keep throwing stuff against the wall, and the community picks up the slack, because he knows there's a ton of talented, passionate people who love this game. So if the community has come up with a solution, discord trading, then why should he bother to put resources into fixing the problem him and his team created? Do they put out some good content? Yeah, but they don't clean up after themselves. That's a bad attitude, in my opinion. |
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Well, one of the other problems with Discord trading is that it is more easily and more often done for dedicated people, again benefiting primarily the dedicated, top-end, min-max crowd.
Remove Horticrafting station storage limit.
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" If I recall correctly Chris said that prior to the nerfs every idiot could make money of Harvest and now its only the smart players. A lot of good crafts are now unused and wasted because plenty players dont know what they are looking at. So its like the rest of the game: Its very rewarding as long as you know what you doing and unrewarding if you dont. The topend players are at the top because of their game knowledge as it should be. " It sure could have served that purpose, instead GGG decided to reward knowledge as pointed out above, which is very much in line with the entire game. To put it differently: Do your homework/research and you will be rewarded, expect free power and you will be disappointed. Though I still dont like the way Harvest was nerfed I can get behind this philosophy. " Thats just another way to say they only want close to mirrortier items but not straight up mirrortier items to obliterate the game with minimal effort as highlight reels form topend players are showing. Why would you hand out this sort of power basically for free for everyone and how to you prevent your game from becoming a joke in a scenario like this? Besides: The power is still available, its just not as obvious and easy anymore. So the complaining players are just complaining about that. They dont have easy access to nigh unlimited and free power anymore but they are trying hard to make it sound like this wasnt what they are really after and paint themselves helpless victims. Give me a break |
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Yes the power is still here, but the grind to achieve half of this power is unbearable...
Path of Exile is a Casino for gambling addicts.
Gambling is not fun nor a game mechanic... |
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