so.. the melee is FINALLY dead now? :)

"

Severance2hBlade wrote:

But we have to remove something else (either dmg or defence) to include that. So in effect you don't really compensate for the loss of damage from impale effect, because we would most likely remove a damage prefix to include ..another damage prefix. Impale effect on jewels is a prefix with a low weight. It is not as common as you might think which also makes it a more expensive investment on a good jewel. It is not logical to ask from someone to compensate impale effect from jewels or gear, where the pool of options to do that are quite limited & specific.

No one said Overwhelm goes to the negative, and i think you underestimate the importance of Overwhelm. It exists even as alternate quality in many damage supports.

It doesn't matter how much physical reduction mobs have. It is a percentage stat thats get multiplied with your damage. If i lose 10% Overwhelm i do 10% less damage. Now GGG slightly compensates Overwhelm in the Tree by giving a total of +15% in the 2 Impale Clusters but impale support loses 30%. This -15% Overwhelm is a big number still & combined with the removed 15% more physdmg & the impale effect..it adds up quickly

Hence moderately invested builds. And impale effect on weapon isn't a prefix.

That's also not how overwhelm works. It's not a damage multiplier once you overwhelm everything the enemy tried to reduced in the first place. Hence why I brought up that it doesn't penetrate into negatives. I swapped between having/not having an extra 30% overwhelm on a older build I have on pob. The dps didn't change whatsoever against sirus. That's because sirus being one of the heavily armored enemies, 32k armor, still barely reduces your damage by ~3% if your average hit is 100k (let's be real you hit a lot harder than this). You literally have to overwhelm 3% damage, everything else beyond that offers 0 dps increase to your build.

"

Severance2hBlade wrote:
But we have to remove something else (either dmg or defence) to include that. So in effect you don't really compensate for the loss of damage from impale effect, because we would most likely remove a damage prefix to include ..another damage prefix. Impale effect on jewels is a prefix with a low weight. It is not as common as you might think which also makes it a more expensive investment on a good jewel. It is not logical to ask from someone to compensate impale effect from jewels or gear, where the pool of options to do that are quite limited & specific.

No one said Overwhelm goes to the negative, and i think you underestimate the importance of Overwhelm. It exists even as alternate quality in many damage supports.

It doesn't matter how much physical reduction mobs have. It is a percentage stat thats get multiplied with your damage. If i lose 10% Overwhelm i do 10% less damage. Now GGG slightly compensates Overwhelm in the Tree by giving a total of +15% in the 2 Impale Clusters but impale support loses 30%. This -15% Overwhelm is a big number still & combined with the removed 15% more physdmg & the impale effect..it adds up quickly

I actually think what they did to impale is a good change. The Impale support is just too strong and became mandatory for any phys attack build. They probably want to change this mechanic into something you have to invest in instead of being a clear logical choice. The strength it has when it was introduced might be, to make phys attack competitive with other damage types. But since then there are so many tool and power than have been introduced for melee physical attack to the game. We have intimidating cry, overwhelm, crush, double damage, triple damage, improved herald of purity, pride, nearby enemy take increased phys damage now. Even bleed can be a somewhat viable damage boost.

I have looked into PoB after the patch and actually find out that moderately investing in impale (support gem + nodes on passive trees only) gives roughly the same damage as just scaling non-impale damage. And I think it is a good thing.

ggg never(?) stated how do they count the overwhelm %

there are two ways:

- 0-100%, as in you get 'some' protection, and overwhelm lets you bypass certain %

- relative. that is: mob has 1200 armour thus giving him 7% PDR vs your 23k phys hit. if you have 7%+ overwhelm your hit ignores mob's armour completely


both formulas are plausible, both make logical sense. sadly - GGG did not tell which one is it and im not sure if POB can be trusted because it has been added AFTER the fork.

"

So as long as someone has <100% Overwhelm he will always benefit from more up till he hits 100%. On that context Overwhelm works just like Resistance Penetration which means it is a direct Multiplier to your Damage.

I think I am quite certain that Overwhelm never reduce monster phys res below zero. In PoB having Overwhelm in your build does not increase your damage unless you have monster have "increase physical damage reduction" map mod checked.

The devs said it will not goes below 0 when it was introduced.

"

sidtherat wrote:

ggg never(?) stated how do they count the overwhelm %

there are two ways:

- 0-100%, as in you get 'some' protection, and overwhelm lets you bypass certain %

- relative. that is: mob has 1200 armour thus giving him 7% PDR vs your 23k phys hit. if you have 7%+ overwhelm your hit ignores mob's armour completely


both formulas are plausible, both make logical sense. sadly - GGG did not tell which one is it and im not sure if POB can be trusted because it has been added AFTER the fork.

The second one is how it's calculated, and the original owner of pob still develops on the main branch that merges with the fork on a ~3 month basis.

You basically need ~15% overwhelm to ignore just about everything the game has to throw at you. The only exception is if your build does no damage or you run that map mod that makes monster take reduced phys damage, then the enemy will reduce significant portions of your hit and you'd need to stack a lot more overwhelm stats.

The reason why it doesn't seem to do anything at all in normal circumstances is because overwhelm is largely a useless stat beyond whatever you pick up accidentally on the tree.

"

yamface wrote:

The reason why it doesn't seem to do anything at all in normal circumstances is because overwhelm is largely a useless stat beyond whatever you pick up accidentally on the tree.

It was great in pvp *sadpepe*

"

Severance2hBlade wrote:

"

yamface wrote:

You basically need ~15% overwhelm to ignore just about everything the game has to throw at you.

If this is the case then it really contradicts with the available Overwhelm values available to the tree. It would be so easy to max out Ovewhelm if this is how it works. Doesn't really make sense.

My take was always that whatever "effective phys damage reduction" a mob has, that value would be the "100% Overwhelm" i need to have in order to do max physical damage.

I don't get why you're so surprised about this. Pretty much anything related to armor calculations is out of touch with the rest of the game. You technically only get about 25% overwhelm from the tree if you play 1 handed swords. 35% if you reach the bottom right node. You get A LOT more if you play 2 handed builds which again is out of touch because 2 handed builds need overwhelm the least, as they naturally fare better against armor anyway.

Even if you had 0% overwhelm, sirus only mitigates 3% of your 100k hits. It's still comically negligible to the point where just about everybody won't notice the difference between 30% and 0% overwhelm on impale.

so, the numbers are in.

the first PoB impression: hmm.. not bad. 0-10% loss on average (some builds, like these with Trinity got hurt more, much more)

NOTE: my POBs NEVER had flasks 'on'. this means my crit was never lucky, i had no Lions Roar etc. for people who had it 'on' - the damage loss is SEVERE, like omfg severe

but then.. mana cost changes completely rolled the characters.

with mana cost going from 20 to 50, not even the gutting of attack speed (support qualities provided surprisingly significant attack speed increase) prevents OOMana situations

these particular chars already used Enlightens and mana leech. but mana leech is a function of your damage and POOL. pool that is already small and cannot be easily increased if you start from ~700.
switching to Lifetap.. so instead paying 50 mana you want me to pay 150 life? and deal EVEN LESS damage?

so one reservation is out. 15% less damage in an instant IN THE BEST CASE

then there is the CwDT setup. this one is gone too. 150 mana for golem? 450 life with lifetap? like seriously? with 250% multiplier i do not expect to see much if any use of this support. 60 mana for IC? cool thing: you cannot CwDT+Blood Rage on CI characters, in fact you cannot run Blood Rage on CI AT ALL.

elemental chars have it easier (Inspiration), phys ones are in pretty tough spot. or straight to the point: you need to drop one reservation. simple as that. and you no longer have CwDT.

as a final nail: movement skills are pretty bad without second wind. and melee without mobility.. tough spot

was it gutted less than BL Mana Hierophant? ofc. is the post-nerf BL Hiero top dog still? sure.. you still get the defences from MoM, standoff playstyle and most mana changes that hinder archers and melee dont affect you

still no reason NOT to play traps this league.

This is all just sad and laughable

Proc immortal call to die. Sounds like a meme build. Called it first ☝️🤣