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How does one measure reward?
Lets climb into the way back machine. Way, way back to Ritual. In Ritual you were presented with a large set of choices and YOU were able decide the items that were valuable for you. You could even defer items for later rituals. Genius!
In Ultimatum, you are presented with a serious of choices and YOU are not able to decide their value. The game decides what is valuable. But that begs the question, how does the game decide what is valuable? Three orbs of alteration in stage 3 of the trial can be rewarding...if you are L10. Not so much when you are L85. A few scouring orbs can be awesome while leveling your first character in the league. No so much when you are L73 and just started mapping.
So then how does the game decide what is valuable for the next stage of the trial? There are so many items in this game that nailing down a progression of value from one stage of the trial to the next appears to be an unsolvable problem. Especially if the items are random.
I think we can all agree that items that are easily obtainable in a raw map, should not be rewards in the trials. Items that are obtainable in a juiced map, should not be rewards in the trials. There has to be some sense of greater reward for the risk.
(Yeah, yeah yeah, we get it. In before, its not risky for you and the rest of us just need to learn how to play, blah blah blah.)
Last bumped on May 1, 2021, 12:09:47 PM
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Posted byAutarch1999#5788on Apr 28, 2021, 11:26:27 AM
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ultimatum rewards are very good, any scouring orbs, regret orbs ,etc are worth a lot. You are kinda showing you don't understand the game much in terms of making money, watch video on youtube about you are more rich than you think. Those items are worth a lot of currency and builds up over time.
thinking about making some youtube video showing 5-10 ultimatum and showing the total cost of profit... it is very rewarding, and sometimes I have died on very good stuff. Ultimatum has brought a lot of excitement in the game for me, especially on high tier maps, one mistake can be death and a lot of stuff to dodge once you start getting to wave 6+
Last edited by momonami5#2026 on Apr 28, 2021, 11:37:08 AM
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Posted bymomonami5#2026on Apr 28, 2021, 11:34:31 AM
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Autarch1999 wrote:
How does one measure reward?
A better question than people realize.
Sadly, in a trading environment, the majority of players will say "value", often in terms of money/currency. A "rewarding league" is a league where you get a lot of currency, either to show off on the forums, like certian kissers, or to give you freedom to try different builds/min-max the current build.
"Rewarding gameplay" in terms of mechanics, fights, a good progression system, cool design and so on, are often forgotten when talking about "rewards". Sad, really, as those rewards are what makes a game good (or not).
Bring me some coffee and I'll bring you a smile.
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Posted byPhrazz#3529on Apr 28, 2021, 11:38:49 AM
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Obviously different people will have different goals, and Ultimatum might not satisfy the goal you're working on. The problem you face here is that the risk/reward ratio isn't the same for different players. KMQ is playing an overpowered character that can waltz through what ever the game throws his way. Of course he thinks the rewards are fine. He calls that "intelligent" play.
The people playing HC-SSF are largely ignoring the encounters. It just doesn't suit their play. Too easy to draw a bad card from the deck.
So it's up to you to decide what you think. Don't worry about what others are doing.
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Posted byShagsbeard#3964on Apr 28, 2021, 11:39:50 AM
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Honestly, most of the rewards comes from all the experience and items you get from killing enemies. On top of that, chaos may offer a decent reward from time to time. As well as the inscribed rewards offering solid options.
Personally have changed my mindset to going further in the trials spawns more enemies for me to kill rather then just be about the reward itself.
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Posted bye1337donkey#1437on Apr 28, 2021, 11:41:05 AM
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momonami5 wrote:
ultimatum rewards are very good, any scouring orbs, regret orbs ,etc are worth a lot. You are kinda showing you don't understand the game much in terms of making money, watch video on youtube about you are more rich than you think. Those items are worth a lot of currency and builds up over time.
thinking about making some youtube video showing 5-10 ultimatum and showing the total cost of profit... it is very rewarding, and sometimes I have died on very good stuff. Ultimatum has brought a lot of excitement in the game for me, especially on high tier maps, one mistake can be death and a lot of stuff to dodge once you start getting to wave 6+
scouring orbs, regret orbs, arent worth much at higher levels when you can buy them from the vendor for items that drops in maps. as usual, you supermen miss the point of the post and as usual you also deflect blame onto the player; its like an involuntary tick with you types of people.
The point is that under ritual the player got to decide what was valuable, in ultimatum, the game decides. ultimatum feels like regressing from an adult to a child. children have choices made for them because adults know which choices are better for them.
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Posted byAutarch1999#5788on Apr 28, 2021, 11:45:16 AM
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Autarch1999 wrote:
How does one measure reward?
Lets climb into the way back machine. Way, way back to Ritual. In Ritual you were presented with a large set of choices and YOU were able decide the items that were valuable for you. You could even defer items for later rituals. Genius!
In Ultimatum, you are presented with a serious of choices and YOU are not able to decide their value. The game decides what is valuable. But that begs the question, how does the game decide what is valuable? Three orbs of alteration in stage 3 of the trial can be rewarding...if you are L10. Not so much when you are L85. A few scouring orbs can be awesome while leveling your first character in the league. No so much when you are L73 and just started mapping.
So then how does the game decide what is valuable for the next stage of the trial? There are so many items in this game that nailing down a progression of value from one stage of the trial to the next appears to be an unsolvable problem. Especially if the items are random.
I think we can all agree that items that are easily obtainable in a raw map, should not be rewards in the trials. Items that are obtainable in a juiced map, should not be rewards in the trials. There has to be some sense of greater reward for the risk.
(Yeah, yeah yeah, we get it. In before, its not risky for you and the rest of us just need to learn how to play, blah blah blah.)
Reason why Ultimatum feel unrewarding is because the rewards don't scale.
They feel very rewarding early on but as you hit the lategame the rewards start to feel pretty lackluster.
The reason basically is because of how much chaos/hour the league mechanic on average yields. The rewards from ultimatums when lucky feel decent. Sometimes you get one exalt or a 6-link like every 200 ultimatums or so. The problem is that the good rewards only come at wave ~8-10 and majority of ultimatums end at ~5-6 waves.
This results in majority of Ultimatums awarding you ~5 chaos orbs and a bunch of rare garbage pretty much.
These rewards are decent and pretty consistent, the problem is that they take a long time to finish for alot of people.
Some ultimatums may take 3-4 minutes long to finish if there's alot of waves and if it's something like stone rings.
This is the problem and reason why ultimatums feel unrewarding.
It's bad chaos/hour compared to doing something like farming Rituals in Haework, Breach/blight in Lira, running blueprints et.c.
Farming ultimatums kinda feels liks darkness wall farming in Delve. You get a couple of chaos here and there. You're much better of farming something like Heist or Simulacrums that award you 10 ex/hour
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Posted byDeadandlivin#2745on Apr 28, 2021, 11:49:26 AM
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Lack of choice on the back of Ritual makes it a poor timing. They shoulda reversed order of release. Look I didnt care for ritual much (yet another breach) but at least you had choices.
Many mechanics nerfed. Harvest. Valdos, etc. only thing worth exploring is Hiest (for cash) or pimping out ainsling to research (for GG crafting). Not the actual league mechanic or other mechanics that made ritual league special.
Git R Dun! Last edited by Aim_Deep#3474 on Apr 28, 2021, 12:01:05 PM
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Posted byAim_Deep#3474on Apr 28, 2021, 11:57:28 AM
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Deadandlivin wrote:
"
Autarch1999 wrote:
How does one measure reward?
Lets climb into the way back machine. Way, way back to Ritual. In Ritual you were presented with a large set of choices and YOU were able decide the items that were valuable for you. You could even defer items for later rituals. Genius!
In Ultimatum, you are presented with a serious of choices and YOU are not able to decide their value. The game decides what is valuable. But that begs the question, how does the game decide what is valuable? Three orbs of alteration in stage 3 of the trial can be rewarding...if you are L10. Not so much when you are L85. A few scouring orbs can be awesome while leveling your first character in the league. No so much when you are L73 and just started mapping.
So then how does the game decide what is valuable for the next stage of the trial? There are so many items in this game that nailing down a progression of value from one stage of the trial to the next appears to be an unsolvable problem. Especially if the items are random.
I think we can all agree that items that are easily obtainable in a raw map, should not be rewards in the trials. Items that are obtainable in a juiced map, should not be rewards in the trials. There has to be some sense of greater reward for the risk.
(Yeah, yeah yeah, we get it. In before, its not risky for you and the rest of us just need to learn how to play, blah blah blah.)
Reason why Ultimatum feel unrewarding is because the rewards don't scale.
They feel very rewarding early on but as you hit the lategame the rewards start to feel pretty lackluster.
The reason basically is because of how much chaos/hour the league mechanic on average yields. The rewards from ultimatums when lucky feel decent. Sometimes you get one exalt or a 6-link like every 200 ultimatums or so. The problem is that the good rewards only come at wave ~8-10 and majority of ultimatums end at ~5-6 waves.
This results in majority of Ultimatums awarding you ~5 chaos orbs and a bunch of rare garbage pretty much.
These rewards are decent and pretty consistent, the problem is that they take a long time to finish for alot of people.
Some ultimatums may take 3-4 minutes long to finish if there's alot of waves and if it's something like stone rings.
This is the problem and reason why ultimatums feel unrewarding.
It's bad chaos/hour compared to doing something like farming Rituals in Haework, Breach/blight in Lira, running blueprints et.c.
Farming ultimatums kinda feels liks darkness wall farming in Delve. You get a couple of chaos here and there. You're much better of farming something like Heist or Simulacrums that award you 10 ex/hour
id be happy if it gave me just 1 chaos. instead i get vendor trash. i mean, if the damned thing started with 1 chaos, id be like, maybe i should attempt this.
i had close to 100 chaos before hitting maps. most of that from these ultimatums. now, they're basically non existant.
im gonna head off to work, cause id rather work on my engines. it's prolly a good thing that this game is unrewarding cause i really should be working. imout.
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Posted byAutarch1999#5788on Apr 28, 2021, 12:05:39 PM
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Deadandlivin wrote:
"
Autarch1999 wrote:
How does one measure reward?
Lets climb into the way back machine. Way, way back to Ritual. In Ritual you were presented with a large set of choices and YOU were able decide the items that were valuable for you. You could even defer items for later rituals. Genius!
In Ultimatum, you are presented with a serious of choices and YOU are not able to decide their value. The game decides what is valuable. But that begs the question, how does the game decide what is valuable? Three orbs of alteration in stage 3 of the trial can be rewarding...if you are L10. Not so much when you are L85. A few scouring orbs can be awesome while leveling your first character in the league. No so much when you are L73 and just started mapping.
So then how does the game decide what is valuable for the next stage of the trial? There are so many items in this game that nailing down a progression of value from one stage of the trial to the next appears to be an unsolvable problem. Especially if the items are random.
I think we can all agree that items that are easily obtainable in a raw map, should not be rewards in the trials. Items that are obtainable in a juiced map, should not be rewards in the trials. There has to be some sense of greater reward for the risk.
(Yeah, yeah yeah, we get it. In before, its not risky for you and the rest of us just need to learn how to play, blah blah blah.)
Reason why Ultimatum feel unrewarding is because the rewards don't scale.
They feel very rewarding early on but as you hit the lategame the rewards start to feel pretty lackluster.
The reason basically is because of how much chaos/hour the league mechanic on average yields. The rewards from ultimatums when lucky feel decent. Sometimes you get one exalt or a 6-link like every 200 ultimatums or so. The problem is that the good rewards only come at wave ~8-10 and majority of ultimatums end at ~5-6 waves.
This results in majority of Ultimatums awarding you ~5 chaos orbs and a bunch of rare garbage pretty much.
These rewards are decent and pretty consistent, the problem is that they take a long time to finish for alot of people.
Some ultimatums may take 3-4 minutes long to finish if there's alot of waves and if it's something like stone rings.
This is the problem and reason why ultimatums feel unrewarding.
It's bad chaos/hour compared to doing something like farming Rituals in Haework, Breach/blight in Lira, running blueprints et.c.
Farming ultimatums kinda feels liks darkness wall farming in Delve. You get a couple of chaos here and there. You're much better of farming something like Heist or Simulacrums that award you 10 ex/hour
I miss dark farm delve. I don't know about C/hr (ssf) but made some wicked shit with fossils I found at 300 mph...but that was when fossils were good too with the sweet sweet underground mods.
Delve is pretty much trash now.
fossils quant nerfed
fossils quality (e.g. weaker mod pool)
dark farm nerfed
Git R Dun! Last edited by Aim_Deep#3474 on Apr 28, 2021, 12:14:45 PM
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Posted byAim_Deep#3474on Apr 28, 2021, 12:11:55 PM
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