Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting

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JayJayxd77 wrote:

Says the HC player, where you definitely WANT a build OVER 50c to simply survive.

I highly doubt EVERYONE who is “whining” wants to stick to a 50c budget lol.

OFC, you get one life, so more life needed :)

One thing you'll notice as well is on HC we actually take life nodes on passive tree, not only damage :)



Imo they could make like a "godmode-league" where you can chose whatever stats on rare items you like.
Like harvest, but even a little stronger.

Then harvest lovers can play on that league.

(🌸=◡=)

GGG states:

"

"We know that many players would love us to keep deterministic crafting in the game because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve."

...or this famous one that has become a meme:

"

"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."

I honestly do not know where to start with these statements. I honestly feel like they only look at PoE player behavior by looking at data and deciding that qualitative feedback is for amateurs. I feel like they have no idea...

1) Why people play PoE
2) What people do in PoE

It seems they have this belief that the solution to A) Fun and B) Speed is by forcing you to gamble. They also believe that the majority of people like to gamble. This is reinforced in the manifesto that keeps using the word "deterministic" as some sort of GGG curse-word is culturally disillusioned.

Heres my top 15 reasons why I think people play PoE:

1) People play your game because it provides simple and intuitive controls that is challenging as they play through content.
2) Its a fun top-down MOBA style game where you kill stuff for loot
3) You can get more powerful
4) You can customize your character with unbridled innovation and very little hard barriers
5) There is a ton of tools to develop and grow at your disposal
6) The world is extremely expansive despite some of the repetition in gameplay.
7) Vibrant community
8) Great Youtube and Streaming content and Discord channels
9) Awesome Wiki Support and external resources
10) Winning in the game feels good
11) You feel accomplished when you do something right in the game and rewards seem instant when you do - such as, "Wow I totally destroyed that map/boss with my new build - feelsgoodman!" or "I struggled so much with that boss, and now I got him on farm - feelsgoodman!"
12) Obtaining wealth
13) Trading with people makes the game feel alive
14) Very little evidence or experience that the game has been compromised by bots, scammers, spammers, griefers, or other entities that make a game community feel like trash. Positive community.
15) Restarting a character or replaying content feels good, like something you want to do not something you HAVE to do because you ran out of content.

Not ONE of those reasons is because...

A) I love obscure mechanics that require me to depend on luck and not skill, my intelligence or hard work to solve - great times! Let's gamble some more!
B) I just love to finish a game like I can in PoE and see those credits roll. Beating PoE was the greatest experience ever.
C) I enjoy instant gratification like I can get in PoE. I just roll up to a Sacred Grove and get out my Base and use the "Deterministic Crafting" and BOOM instant MIRROR TIER GEAR! POGCHAMP! Wait... what? You mean getting a Tier 1 phys roll still requires 870 Exalts worth of crafts to make? EZ CLAP average player currency! I'll make 12 by noon.

GGG continues to manage the game based on the actions of the 1%'ers. I get obtaining gear needs to be tailored. Everyone agreed with that but, GGG doesn't understand that RNG is not what drives this game, it's actually what is a pain point for many players. This "gambling" ethos is shoved down players thoughts like its the secret sauce. Its just not. Look at every other game that has exclusively used RNG as a core game mechanic, failed. Look at the developer Nexon. They use RNG as their means to exclusively generate revenue. They have barely a game that is wrapped around it. So much so they are required to publically list chances of outcomes. GGG, you need to change your philosophy on these topics and start listening to your players. - micdrop.

Reading through all those comments "GGG should listen to the majority of the player base - the casuals - otherwise it´s going to die" frustrates me..

PoE did not become that giant of a game in it´s genre because it was made for "the casual" in mind nor do the developers need to listen to any of those people - in fact they should NOT listen at all to them.

Of course everyone gets mad when something he/she played gets nerfed.. or a mechanic gets "killed" (like Harvest here)..
I say that "of course" .. although i never really cared for nerfs to builds i play and there were many.. there is always something else to explore!
So why is it that people get so upset over something they shouldn´t even care for?

We play a game that passionate people developed over years, that grew and flourished like no other in it´s genre and it keeps getting better and better, more content, more diversity in play, deeper systems - everything that made PoE the game it is.

Don´t try to be "smarter" than the people who made this game (even if from a certain point of few, you might as well be "smarter"). It is their game and i for myself am happy to visit PoE every 3 Months with a new surge of energy, to dive into whatever build i might feel like and experience whatever content there is.

PLAY the game, don´t try to MAKE the game!
(or don´t play it, if you can´t stand nerfs or changes.. but then at least have the decency to not cry and whine for things you think you deserve.. but actually don´t)

Nerfs to alternative quality gems was 8 less damage and surability to my build. This feels terribe. Now this. I am sorry but I am rage quiting along with my support. Too much disapointment.

"

trepcsuit wrote:

GGG states:

"

"We know that many players would love us to keep deterministic crafting in the game because it enables them to complete their items far more quickly than they otherwise would. But then there would quickly be nothing left to achieve."

...or this famous one that has become a meme:

"

"We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not."

I honestly do not know where to start with these statements. I honestly feel like they only look at PoE player behavior by looking at data and deciding that qualitative feedback is for amateurs. I feel like they have no idea...

Full ack. Whenever they output a 'manifesto' - really just a slew of apologies for the nerfs - I find myself literally shaking my head at their intentions and reasons, at this design philosophy that runs contrary to everything I want. Reading that of 500 pages' worth of replies only about 2% are positive actually calms me down a bit because it shows that for once, I'm not the odd one out with my sentiments.

All they needed to do was disable trading of the crafts. But this, this is actually closer to what e.g. EA did with their "Battlefront II" character unlocks. Makes no difference to me if I need to spend 40 hours unlocking Darth Vader or to afford a single good item. Parents, teach your kids about the subtleties of online gambling - playing the RNG roulette for hours on end for virtual goods is time of life stolen.

Anyone know of an alternative to this game, maybe by a younger company that's still closer to their playerbase than to Tencent shareholders? Always remember: "It's difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on him not understanding it."

"

aggrofee wrote:

PLAY the game, don´t try to MAKE the game!
(or don´t play it, if you can´t stand nerfs or changes.. but then at least have the decency to not cry and whine for things you think you deserve.. but actually don´t)

Actually, that's not quite true with the deserving part. Even putting all fiscal investments aside (and there's a lot of that; heck, all the supported packs bought over the years have made GGG a multi-billion company), the sheer thousands of hours of lifetime millions of people have poured into this product entitles them to at the very least an opinion, because it's become a great part of their lives. Such is the fate of all popular creation.

"South Park" did an interesting sketch on this about Spielberg and Lucas updating their movies: The point is successful products no longer solely belong to the creator. The time, emotions, money spent on them by the consumer make them at least partly theirs. Even purely virtual assets (movies, games) can become so intertwined in people's conscious they feel actively robbed if they are taken away. Imagine your favorite band snuck into your home one night and irreversibly altered your favorite album by them, giving nothing but the explanation "It's better this way."

There are no legal grounds for recourse, and that's actually a good thing or else the developers would be too scared to make anything lest they are sued over it in the future. But from an ethical point of view, it feels wrong to take the most beloved parts of a game away just because they might dilute future profit.

It's also exacerbated in the case of this game because everything is server-sided, which normally has great benefits (above all the impossibility to cheat). But it also means that Harvest's days are, as of this thread, numbered. Doom is looming on the horizon and when the new patch hits in a few days, there is no going back, only scorched earth where once crops bloomed. You can't play the game offline, be it with emulators or by other means, which would allow you to essentially play Harvest indefinitely, just in your own, perpetual SSF league. You can't go back once the patch hits, and you can't not install the patch. This inevitability of the impending nerf leaves you but two choices: Comply or stop playing. None of us want to do the latter. We love this game, that's why we complain.

.

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illdyking wrote:

Why do people whine so much.

You can probably beat most of the game on SC with 50C gear, you dont need harvest gear for that.

I mean, you got 6 rips, 6 portal.

Your post is irrelevant. " Softcore players " don't play one build the entire league like you. Harvest allows multiple off-meta builds to work but given you are a hardcore player that plays boring Ancestral totem you probably won't understand. 50c would obviously be sufficient for your tree build in one entire league so it makes sense where you are coming from since you've never had fun min-maxing an actual build. Leave this topic discussion to the veterans buddy.

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ph3l0n wrote:

Stupid decision. You refuse to fix the fact that ALL end game items are crafted. Instead you just make it harder to craft them again. Don't bother fixing the fact that most loot filters filter out 99% of the loot because it is absolutely worthless to pick up. Instead you take away the only viable way to get decent items for people who don't play this game like their life depends on it.

I am sorry Chris, but you have lost your pulse on what players want. You talk about how most people quit before hitting yellow maps, then you have a league where people play into yellow maps, you take away the reason they even played in the first place. I can't believe how absolutely out of touch you are with your own player base and the design of this game.

This ingorance and many other ignorant players who make it sound like the game is unplayable casually without harvest gear. What is your problem exactly ? Do you want to play 1 hour per day, and gather the same gear as someone who plays 18 hours a day ?

Besides who the f said items were impoossible to get for casual players. Even when i played first 3 weeks of the league only i managed to get some stupidly strong items without even harvest crafting. But then i came to the game 1 months later and realised that no matter how much i farm, my currency holds no value anymore. Because people don't use the currency anymore with harvest doing everythimg,and that's boring as fuck. It is like i want to use an exalt on my item amd gamble it out but because it is stupid to do that i can't do it. Hell i miss the day where syndicate leo slam meant something 🤣

This game is about acquiring gear "THAT'S PRECISELY WHY YOU SHOULDNT BE ABLE TO GET MIRROR GEAR IN 1 WEEK"


IF any of you complaining idiots played other games, it is system like harvest that so many of the popular game forced the loyal community to quit.

Path of exile held so long and longer than many other games becauxe it held onto the challenging playstyle "including the crafting system" giving up that will just make it fall in the same pitfall as many other popular games that fell apart eventually.

I understand it, if people have the desire to obtain mirror tier items by the last 2 weeks of a league.

The game would be healthier if there is a progressive system that allows people to eventually obtain that mirror tier items by the very end of the league.

JUST NOT A SYSTEM that allows you to obtain the mirror gear first 2 weeks for god sake lol.

"

p_2 wrote:

In my opinion, the withdrawal of the Harvest is a mistake and a thoughtless approach ...
Harvest was supposed to counterbalance the game's inability to create.
The first time he played in a league of deterministic crating, he ridiculed the Empyrian - by organizing a party line in his garden ... and building hundreds of Horis.
The second time around, the introduction of harvest made trading on TFT Discord amused, and it is that many players trying to farm one item can break the barriers of the game.
It is not ordinary players who are to be punished with the inability to customize the game and items.
The situation goes back to the fact that only the richest and organized could afford to make great items.
History has come full circle again.
The same rich as orbs eternals have achieved their goals in the game - ordinary players will suffer the consequences.
Was that what Harvest was supposed to be?
I believe that the harvest was supposed to balance the opportunity between rich players and regular players.
My personal opinion is that harvest should not be removed from the game. It shouldn't be dead ...
Harvest should be strictly linked to the player's account, without the possibility of selling items with an expansion lock
Each player would be able to create their inventory on high-level maps, not being able to sell it or make it available until the end of the existing extension (except for a mirror copy that would be possible)
The seeds should be returned to increase the degree of difficulty.
This will limit the abuse and bulk creation of perfect items, but will not destroy the nature and sense of harvest.
Every craftsman will not buy crats, but he had to look for them, grow and fight in his own garden :))
The reward for your hard work will be the ability to create unusual items but with the help of hundreds of other people.
Chriss is not to harvest what the people are.
In my opinion, similar changes should go to Beastcrafting
- this game is supposed to be difficult, but it has to be possible !!! ... should return the nets and catch the best monsters on the maps - the same should apply to a limited extent also Delve the most rare fossils - should have a time delay - this will increase the difficulty but not prevent new avid players from creating and playing and loving the game.
This will limit abuse on the league and the standard will weaken the position of the richest and best organized players and guilds, giving the possibility of finding seeds in the party on maps, but breeding and crafting would only depend on one player to whom the map belonged :))
The level of difficulty and effort should be a reward for every player not only for the richest but also for the persistent ones. Don't take it back.
Restore rewards from Delve and Bestiary with item limitation to account and the applicable game evaluation extension. (I'm just talking about endgame and top fossils rewards from Delve and Beast or seeds)
This will force players to play the game, not live in a hideout. This should not restrict trading because time restrictions may have different grace periods for specific prizes.

COMPLETING THE EARLIER STATEMENT.
I've been playing PoE for a long time and I've seen a lot, the problem is not Harvest but its form of abuse. Everyone in this game should be allowed to make their own gear. The main abuse is being able to trade the results of Harwest. I will be critical, I am not poor and I know much richer people who have spent huge amounts of mirrors in their service, thus creating a barrier at a level that normal players will never reach. These are the same people who have access to the base of other eternals :))) This game is not for the poor. But by taking the poorest Harwest players, you doom the weakest Chriss to quit the game (read what they write about)
- Harvest should be a deterministic creation path for one account only
- The breeding process should be restored - it should have proportional gain for solo players and vice versa proportional for party (in terms of HC and SSF players)
- Seeds should be on maps and only these should have trade options (these could be maps from t15-16 and above) all seeds would permanently belong to the owner running the map in device
-Seeds grown mists would only be used by whoever grows them
-Services and results could only be sold in the next game evaluation extension, so these game items from 3.14 could be sold on 3.15 after reaching the std league.
This would inhibit mass production and the lack of exchange would allow the possibility of creation to exist but prevent it from being forcefully broken - as did the Empyrian or the TFT trade.