Development Manifesto: Harvest Crafting

Why are we even needing to argue over which camp is in the majority?

Put a poll up, and let's sort this.

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smplx wrote:

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Am3nti wrote:

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I am glad that GGG thus far hasnt succumbed to listen to the cries of a minority.

Wow... Just wow. So the Harvest manifesto has the all time, record breaking replies and posts, both on the official forum (currently at 339 pages of replies and growing, compared to 50-75 pages for the other manifestos) and on reddit (8.3 k comments, with an upvote of 33% - they literally had to pin the original post so that reddit doesn't hide it due to the downvotes). So, overwhelmingly negative replies to the manifesto... and LOADS of them!

And you still say this is a minority... You might be just as out of touch with the game community as Chris was with his Exalt slam remark...

The majority of the playerbase don't even read news posts this far into the league, don't go to reddit to make posts on it and don't comment here. This hate shitstorm that we see here is from a minority group. Statistically irrelevant. The numbers next league start will tell the true story. i bet it will be the usual crowd.

What kills me is that you are absolutely right when you say that the majority of players don't even read the news and development manifestos. The most part of the players only access forums in search of popular and functional builds and completely ignore devs session and everything else.

But one think I know: after 340+ pages, I guess the message was very clear about this sad manifesto.

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Fenoch wrote:

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Ironsolid wrote:

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Fenoch wrote:

Yet the majority of the whining children with plenty not even having spend a single dime on a game they have enjoyed for multiple years fails to understand the concept of a metaphor.

Blizzard listened to an army of whining, whinging idiotic children begging fopr items to rain from the sky and so the items did.

6 months later Diablo 3 was a dead wasteland and trade was non existent.

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Child/uneducated vs intelligent/mature.

Bring on the hate. Dont care.

Diablo 3 crashed for a few reasons:

1. Lack of item diversity.
2. Lack of build diversity.
3. Content was never updated, and when it was they charged for a new class to experience the same content.

Your entire post is one negative, childish comment after another, and yet you have the nerve to, at the end of your post, hint that everyone else's posts are childish and uneducated.

Take some time to reread your post, maybe you will see just how immature it actually is.

I am sorry Mr. professor. You are right. Whining and crying in a forum for a video game is the root of maturity.

It is pathetic. Just be quiet, let the devs do whatever and deal with the results. If you do not like the result. Leave and play something else or go outside in your spare time.

I never claimed to not be childish. I am well aware of my targeted, well crafted sarcastic remarks and comparisons/metaphors.

Sometimes I use remove sarcasm/add realism and then harvest divine it to 50/50 stats.

Just for the heck of it:

Diablo 3 didn't just fail for your aformentioned reasons.

The start of its downfall was watering it down and spraying legendaries everywhere.

That happened because an army of casuals and single minded individuals flocked to the forums crying about the elite playing the game and selling stuff on the RMAH and yet they can't compete and they wanna sell their flower for 5 Dollah too.

So RMAH closed, followed by the Normal AH closing, followed by items raining from the skies, followed by trade becoming non existent followed by a massive powercreep across the entirety of its player base, followed by the flaws to insufficient gameplay mechanics/endgame content becoming apparent wayyy to quickly

and then came the bad business choices such as new content = same content but new class + having to spend money (Reaper of Souls etc)-

Eventually it was you pick a class, farm the exact same items as everyone else (sets specific legendaries etc), start running GRs, upgrade your GR gems, use the exact same setup as the GR leaderboards, copy/paste "builds" and play and play and play to farm more of the same sets just with better stats to increase GR by 1-2 level.

Spamming a market with near perfect items is NEVER a good choice. PoE relies on trade. It is a core part of the experience. Sure trading could be better and integrated into the game itself rather than hunting through countless websites or Discord but it is what it is.

And I am gonne be honest here with you: I HATE and I mean HATE reading about complete newbies to the game, who run around demolishing everything in seconds in their first ever league.

This should not be the norm, nor, if memory serves me correctly, was this the intent of the original game creators.

You do realise that these are 3 regular dudes like you and me and whoever else, who just wanted to make their own game right? Not some global Triple A title conglomerate. And Boy did they pull it off.

Do you even manage to comprehend just how hard it is to do this in a modern day environment? and to then get a large company like tencent to pay attention to your tiny studio and acquire you? LoL. I dont think you people have the slightest grasp what a feat that is.

And so they make a change where newbies and super casuals wont play redmaps within 2 weeks. Boo---fudging--hoo.

Do me a favour. Go to my profile. Look at my shitty as toons for this league. Check out the gear. Does any of this look unachievable with little playtimee?

Does it?

And it beats all content in game. All of it. On Awaken 9. It doesnt melt stuff but it beats it.

Keep em coming boys and girls, let the feller know he dun goof'ed up.

harvest was the worst experience this league. I did craft multiple 40ex++ items - triple elvated and stuff. I did craft a nearly mirror tier bleed axe (roughly ~80ex worth at that time - still at start of the league)
So yes, i am a crafter

the only legit way to craft this season was harvest
being all day every day on TFT to buy crafts (sometimes on bulk) was the most annoying and worst experience - yet it was also easy to make big money this way.

It's kinda hilarious to see people having complete meltdowns and claiming they are poor casuals that got hurt by this. while those people sit on headhunters and a networth of gear/currency of multiple mirrors.

This league had more mirror worthy gear just a few weeks in than any non-harvest league at the end of the league. Stop pretending like harvest was anything close to being balanced.
Stop pretending that it hits the casuals. People hit most by this are the big time crafters that were bulk-buying and mass crafting via TFT.

Harvest let averge players to have decent gear, allowing to clear end content. This was first league where I was able to kill all content.


In addition I wanted to play next league in ssf for the first time ever because i felt like it make sense now.

Anyway... if this comes to live, no ssf for me.



And I am shocked, how developers have no idea how to play their own game- aka feeling of slamming exalt blindly :D

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Kairuto2020 wrote:

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Black_Baobab wrote:

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Kairuto2020 wrote:

Let's let them implement what is intended first and we will see if it really hurt the whole game play. What if few weeks into next league, you see many top tier gear easily and everyone will be forgeting this whole episode. If it turn out really bad, GGG can always re-tweak again the following league. It is a free game after all and we already know GGG is using all of this year to fine tune the mechanic for POE2. Lets give them a chance for it to prove their tweak. One can always skip the league if it is that bad. Don't murder them on just 1 adjustment when they have already provided 8 years of countless new league mechanic and gaming enjoyment.

A lot of people are reacting because, if you look at a lot of unhappy players here, the manifesto feels bad for multiple reason. I'll only note two :
- It is surprisingly out of touch (slamming is fun and the way to craft ??)
- It wants to kill determinism and go back to gamble. I hate gamble, many people hate gamble. With harvest, we had a way to make progress while crafting that suits our liking and style of play. With the change, we'll revert back to the old gamble system that feels so bad for a lot of people (In my case, I'll just revert to buying things). But now, I'll have the bitter taste that it WAS fun. I would prefer it was just not implemented and stay in my blissful ignorance.

I still love the game, still love the gameplay, and I will still be around. But reminding me that the trade and the crafting system is bad AND mandatory is not fun at all, especially now that we know that it can be better...

Determinism is not the issue. The issue is the value of determinism. What they fail to admit is they made a mistake by under-valuing determinism. Example Jeweller to make 6 sockets. You can RNG it or you can use crafting bench at a cost of 300 Jeweller. Or Fusing - you can RNG it for 6 linked or you can spend 1500 Fusing to instant 6linked it. Everything has a cost attached for determinism. Harvest is under-valuing them.

If you go by slamming 1 ex to add a random mod, then Harvest Aug specific type mod should cost a lot more than 1 ex to do it. It should probably be 5ex or 10ex per craft. GGG knows this but if they take this route, the casual players will still complain and say GGG is catering to the super rich who only they can afford to use Harvest. This is where the dilemma lies.

Determinism is one problem (not talking for everyone though).
I will avoid harvest in its expected new form because it is back to gamble. Harvest defenitely needs a rework and most certainly a cost. But gamble is not for me. Chaos spam is just not fun. "Better chaos spam" from harvest will make it a better gamble, but still a gamble.
With very rare occurence, you progress very slowly, but it is still progress. With gamble, you may loose a lot and virtually loose progression... until you make it back (maybe)
It's just not my fun. I'm OK with the game punishing for being bad. I'm not OK to be punished for being unlucky for too long. But you play as you want.

Hope they read this:

GGG killed the goals of a player in the game:

There are only 2 paths to take:

1. Save up some currency and buy a mirror and afford mirror crafting service.
2. Be an idiot and mindlessly going in maps and play long hoping that gear will drop.

Two paths destroy casual players. There is a third for casual players: Be satisfied with your garbage gear and quit early in the league because there is no chance to get the high end gear.

If they didnt massively nerf harvest for casual players:

1. Players have goals to their gear, slowly progressing each item to somewhat mirror worthy tier which is attainable in three months league time through harvest.

If this is the case, then I'll just play standard.

And really Exalt slam? Do you guys even play the game long enough to understand where is the fun on exalt slam?

Put up a poll... or give the game back to the 0.9%...
ridiculous changes in my opinion..

I'm average player, only harvest allowed me to craft those good items, they are not triple-quadriple elevated, they are just good

Without harvest, i guess, i would use only multimod gear, because i cant afford spending mirror+ for a good item

without harvest i would never use maven's orb myself again

Without harvest i would again just hit 36/40, get multimod gear and wait for next league

Harvest showed, how terrible rng fiesta your crafting is, it gave average players chance to craft!


WE are the majority of your player base, WE are not 0.1%, WE dont have multiple mirrors, please hear our voice