Trying to turn down "toxicity" is trying to turn down the game itself. Exciting gameplay naturally also excites emotions. Gamers just sorta have to get over it. Little smacktalk wasn't a problem back in the days, now kids are triggered by literally everything ... This can't end well. The irony is the more you are offended, the more they'll try to offend.
This.
The word "toxic" itself means "something I don't like" and is a degratory term without any actual objective meaning - because it's just easier to think that "they" = the "subject" are correct and right and everyone who makes them upset - "toxic" and therefore - "bad".
This is problem of humanity. Nothing has changed since humans blamed everything bad on "devil", just the name has been changed.
Because of that I don't take seriously any texts which use the term "toxic" unironically.
There are ways to define toxicity without it being partisan, it's just that since we never got a widely respected definition (as with most new words), people happily used it however it suited their agenda. But we can formulate a definition that isn't in service to one agenda or another, simply excluding more partisan uses as invalid. For instance -
Toxic = A pattern of behavior in which a person consistently expresses a high degree of negativity, particularly in an unconstructive manner, including if with malicious intents.
Let's break that down. First off, notice that is says nothing about what kind of opinions or beliefs are toxic. So we've already excluded partisanship.
Secondly, it's a "pattern of behaviour", meaning you can't infer it from a one-off experience of it - it has to be inferred from habitual responses.
Thirdly, it requires them to have been at it "consistently", so if they're just a free-wheeling sort who happen to curse a fair deal in their speech, they still might not be toxic as long as they're also known to be nice on other occasions. So you can be negative, so long as that's not all you are.
Fourthly, it focuses on "negativity", which reinforces that this isn't about what kind of politics or other beliefs you may support. It also requires said negativity to be "high", meaning you express yourself using quite strong language when doing so, when a milder tone could easily have sufficed.
Fifthly, the negativity is typically "unconstructive" i.e. it does not attempt to provide solutions and/or it isn't willing to entertain compromises i.e. 'my way or the highway'. Just to head off an easy weaseling out by such people using this facet of the definition, making simplistic demands doesn't count - you have to show a willingness to be thoughtful and to productively engage with your interlocutors. As an example, if you demand an auction house in PoE, either spell out a considered proposal for one, or at least engage positively with those who point out issues with the idea in order to hash a proposal out.
(Incidentally, this also helps explain why Twitter and similar such sites are often hotbeds of toxicity - it's hard not to with such short word counts. You can either be nice but empty, or nasty and empty)
Lastly, while you don't necessarily have to have had "malicious intents" when venting your toxicity i.e. you may not have meant to harm or upset people, it stands to reason that if you did have such intents and do it consistently, then you count as toxic. So basically, outright sadism is toxic by nature. This is particularly meant to cover those who skirt this definition via writing within 'the letter of the law' i.e. 'trolling', such as a couple of the more infamous users of this forum have been up to for a while now...
There, a working definition of 'toxic' that has nothing to do with -
"
the "subject" are correct and right and everyone who makes them upset - "toxic" and therefore - "bad"
Does that meet with your approval? If not, please point out how it's lacking, and how to improve it.
I was always a fan of LoL tribunal system (haven’t a clue if they still got it...haven’t played the game in years). Basically if there were enough reports against a particular player inside a game, the chat logs would be sent to the Tribunal. Players could log into the tribunal and vote yeah or nay to guiltiness of the offense. Staff would then come and make a final determination taking into account the communities overall acceptance. Right now GGG just has chat mods issue temporary mutes for most offenses.
This is a cool idea. One of the problem with the GGG mods atm is that they're unaccountable. And no, being accountable to the company isn't as good as being accountable to the community - you don't engender a feeling of justice and acceptance of mod decisions that way. This is compounded by the fact that not only are their individual decisions unaccountable, but the Code of Conduct itself was not decided in consultation with the community. In contrast, the subreddit mods are chosen from the community and so need to have a certain level of public trust / buy-in, and its rules are also decided - and frequently modified / tweaked - in consultation with said community.
People have this weird idea that only states should care about communities, and private companies should be able to do whatever they want. But that's not been true for ages - not only are there laws restricting their activities, but projects involving communities have long had to gain community buy-in to be allowed to go forward (it forms part of what's known as 'social impact assessments'), at least ideally (obviously they try a lot of shenanigans to get around this). The ultimate aim is to make a better world for everyone, not get stuck in a rigid distinction between which institutions are responsible for that and which aren't i.e. we're all in this together, so act like it.
When it first started being used as a buzzword, toxicity was being used as a way to shame people who cared about what was happening in (pvp) games.
Which, in that context, will never be removed from any healthy game, because the object is TO get players invested enough in the results that they care, not disinterested to the point they do not.
That is something seen commonly in sports, who have realized in the year of stupid that playing games with no crowd noise and mics everywhere means their censors are working overtime, because trash talk is ~50% of what you say in competition, and is starting at the lowest ages of competitive play.
To the video itself, his premises are rejectable outright.
Text and voice are not "bad methods of communication".
Unfriendliness is not toxicity. Nor is saying fuck or shit if the situation warrants it.
When it first started being used as a buzzword, toxicity was being used as a way to shame people who cared about what was happening in (pvp) games.
Which, in that context, will never be removed from any healthy game, because the object is TO get players invested enough in the results that they care, not disinterested to the point they do not.
That is something seen commonly in sports, who have realized in the year of stupid that playing games with no crowd noise and mics everywhere means their censors are working overtime, because trash talk is ~50% of what you say in competition, and is starting at the lowest ages of competitive play.
To the video itself, his premises are rejectable outright.
Text and voice are not "bad methods of communication".
Unfriendliness is not toxicity. Nor is saying fuck or shit if the situation warrants it.
Good take. My favorite hobby is paintball, and there is always trash talking and bravodo. However at the end of a match or game. I have to realize I'm going to see that person on the field again or at social events. So there does have to be level of mutual respect and understanding that nobody gets butthurt.
True toxicity is a destruction of the community and sport itself. However it's a word that's been bastardized to show your upset with someone.
Fix gaming toxicity is not possible because people will be people
For one: The internet in general is a very faceless enviroment where we can do and say many things that we woudnt usually be able to get away from, that tends to bring out the worst out of anyone. Sure, some people's worst are... well... worst... but point being, its a hostile enviroment by nature
For two: We are all more selfish and petty than we care to admit and chances are, our true worst is likely much worse than that we think it is. Every living creature is hard-wired to be selfish, its called something like the "egoistic gene theory" and there are whole studies that show how we all shun those who are different and side whith those we identify with. Kids do it, babies do it. Its possible to mature out of it somewhat but empaty is(largely) a skill you have to learn rather than an actual human trait- on the same note, there are also studies showing people enter an argument to "win", not to learn or re-evaluate one's own positions(even if we all know its fkin silly as there is no prize watsoever)
For tree: What constitutes as toxic is largely on the eye of the beholder. People all have a different set of values and what dont bother one may be serious business for other. We cant all just get along because we dont share a common view of what would be the scenario of getting along, we cant even have too clear and hard forum rules because we cant all agree where to draw that line where someone is starting to say too much. Sure we can sort the most extreme cases like death treats and bigotry, but the grey line is the real problem and that grey line is surprisingly broad
So nope, toxicity will maybe relent a bit when everyone have good education both on school and home and everyone gets that empaty skill, but until there, its here to stay im afraid
IMHO the best thing is take it as learning, as i admit my point one is a bit redundant: We all have to deal with a great deal of douches even outside the internet
Fix gaming toxicity is not possible because people will be people
For one: The internet in general is a very faceless enviroment where we can do and say many things that we woudnt usually be able to get away from, that tends to bring out the worst out of anyone. Sure, some people's worst are... well... worst... but point being, its a hostile enviroment by nature
For two: We are all more selfish and petty than we care to admit and chances are, our true worst is likely much worse than that we think it is. Every living creature is hard-wired to be selfish, its called something like the "egoistic gene theory" and there are whole studies that show how we all shun those who are different and side whith those we identify with. Kids do it, babies do it. Its possible to mature out of it somewhat but empaty is(largely) a skill you have to learn rather than an actual human trait- on the same note, there are also studies showing people enter an argument to "win", not to learn or re-evaluate one's own positions(even if we all know its fkin silly as there is no prize watsoever)
For tree: What constitutes as toxic is largely on the eye of the beholder. People all have a different set of values and what dont bother one may be serious business for other. We cant all just get along because we dont share a common view of what would be the scenario of getting along, we cant even have too clear and hard forum rules because we cant all agree where to draw that line where someone is starting to say too much. Sure we can sort the most extreme cases like death treats and bigotry, but the grey line is the real problem and that grey line is surprisingly broad
So nope, toxicity will maybe relent a bit when everyone have good education both on school and home and everyone gets that empaty skill, but until there, its here to stay im afraid
IMHO the best thing is take it as learning, as i admit my point one is a bit redundant: We all have to deal with a great deal of douches even outside the internet
Love this ∆. There is just too much complexity in the human brain and how we interact and take in ques from our environment and especially social interactions. The internet is a folly that only masquerades as "social" on the primal side. I don't think it's redundant. It's fascinating to talk about this and apply it to a game or any topic of where people interact.
I'll give my 2cents worth. With the advent of the internet and gaming forums people are free to give their opinions on things. It is abundantly clear from Harvest that we all have different ways of looking at the same thing.
Thus the answer to how to fix gaming toxicity is I don't see it happening. The only part of the toxicity I dislike a lot is people who have not thought out their opinions. They bitch just to bitch and that is unappealing.
But, I will say that the forums helped me to get over my initial horrible dislike of Harvest. I tried to keep an open mind and listen to the proponents state their case, and I listened, sucked it up and played a normal league worth and it was fine. With no forums I would not have continued.
Last edited by MrWonderful99#4612 on Aug 26, 2020, 10:31:56 PM
You will never fix it. Even on single player games ppl can rage at the fucking computer.
On multiplayers there is the case of tilt, being bad at accepting defeat, the anxiety to perform better than others or to show off how good you are, the pleasure of humiliating the oponent as oponents have humiliated you previously and lastly people who are angry as fuck IRL (sick of their job, paying taxes, their goverment, their relationship, etc) and just dump their rage into someone else on online games.
To pretend negativity/hate doesn't exist and it doesn't drive players to hurt each other both IRL and in the internet is childish.
At most you can add mute/ignore options maybe profane word filters/censorship (which imo should be optional). And maybe ban players who consistenly speak shit to others.
"In this game you're just a cow being milked, not a human being entertained" - Kiss_Me_Quick
Trying to turn down "toxicity" is trying to turn down the game itself. Exciting gameplay naturally also excites emotions. Gamers just sorta have to get over it. Little smacktalk wasn't a problem back in the days, now kids are triggered by literally everything ... This can't end well. The irony is the more you are offended, the more they'll try to offend.
reminds me of a quote by Lou holtz. “Never tell your problems to anyone...20% don't care and the other 80% are glad you have them.”
It's a dog eat dog world. Always has been always will be. You can cry about it or do something about it. I choose to block it out in my free time. Shut down chat OP.
Git R Dun!
Last edited by Aim_Deep#3474 on Aug 27, 2020, 3:41:30 PM
