Slam skills dps, where is it?

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

You're already flasking constantly so even the simplest builds have frequent button "usage" outside maybe partciular necro summoners.

But having to micromanage warcry buffs goes beyond button pressing - counting attacks timing cooldowns and managing durations all the while having to deal with fight mechanics.

The payoff isn't really worth all the extra, kinda like why harvest got such a cold shoulder by so much of the player base.

Sorry but did you actually play a slam build or are you just repeating the nonsense other people posted? Because it sure looks like the latter.

I am currently playing 2 slam builds and aside from the mainskill and movement skill there are 2-3 buttons i have to press for bosses and 1 during mapping. Seismic cry alone is more than enough to pulverize 2 screens full of mobs in one click, there is no need for damage flasks or other warcries here. And with enduring cry and second wind i don't need heal flasks. Intimidating cry is a nice add against endgame bosses but it's not like it's even necessary, both skills pack such a punch that you could do without it easily. I have always been too lazy for flask piano because it's just tedious and only used them ocassionally when need. Now with those warcries i could as well remove them entirely.

Warcries also have the upside, compared to flasks, that they don't run out while you are dodging boss mechanics. In fact, they aren't running out at all. A problem you frequently have against endgame bosses especially Sirus and the other Exiles except Drox as none of them has adds to fuel your flasks.

For example, you pop your flasks against Sirus and then he goes meteor right after and you just wasted your precious charges. With Warcries that doesn't matter, i can just use the charge later on and since you only attack once every 2 seconds and kite the rest of the time managing the cooldowns isn't particularly difficult either.
And if we go and compare the 110% more damage of intimidating cry and/or the up to 120% more of seismic cry with the up to 25% more of Lions roar, which is one of the best damage flasks for a melee in the game, then that really isn't even a comparison at all. And i only have to press them like every 10 seconds, not every 5 seconds.

There is absolutely no rational reason to bother with constant flask usage when you use warcries except maybe for 100% delirium maps and even there i doubt it will do much. That bit of extra damage won't change whether you can beat the map or not. The rest of the endgame content just bends over anyway. Doing Uber Elder with my EQ Jugg was the easiest run i ever had.

So, i dig the slow playstyle. I can play fast builds but I enjoy slow ones too.

Since i hate the Harvest league from my guts and it's boring as hell, I tried HC.
Followed Quin69 bleedquake Jugg build and it was great during the leveling. One of the easiest leveling due to solid gear from garden. Died later, nvm...

Damage when i got to the maps fell off like a stone. I took all the damage nodes at that point, 4L 400 pdps, but still.
I have no idea hwo he killed awakener 8 with it since im sure every spell starter will have more dps than his endgame char.

Here is Quin's PoB.
https://pastebin.com/P5Yrm1Hc

Since Sirus is stationary target he has 220,000 bleed dps which is a joke, and his char is pretty solid. Not much can be done to make that damage substantially higher.
Playstyle is super lazy bonking which i liked, but damage feels really lackluster.

Dunno, i'm definitely missing something or uber crafted gear is required.
In my eyes it's ok for slams to rely on Cries but they should be also made around Resolute Technique not flask piano.
Things got complicated too much also tbh. When i take a look at new PoBs, new new cluster jewels, exerted hits and what not, i even lose desire to theorycraft it.

sry for rant

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Baharoth15 wrote:

There is absolutely no rational reason to bother with constant flask usage when you use warcries except maybe for 100% delirium maps and even there i doubt it will do much. That bit of extra damage won't change whether you can beat the map or not. The rest of the endgame content just bends over anyway. Doing Uber Elder with my EQ Jugg was the easiest run i ever had.

I saw your char. ~150k bleed dps if i'm not mistaken.

UE has like 50 million HP. You need like 7s to chip off 1 mill of his life... How is that good?

Heal flasks?

Flasking is damage reduction and ailment removal/immunity.

If you aren't doing content where you aren't concerned with incoming damage, then you must be rolling maps a lot to avoid a number of mods.

But generally speaking, mapping isn't where damage is a big concern outside of delirium. As I recall, you've never done 100% delirium so you don't have the same point of reference a lot of us that did are familiar with. I'm half-tempted to give you a simulacrum just to see what playing with that content in mind is like but I'm just not that generous.

You see, warcry itself isn't new and in delirium it wasn't utilized for damage as much as a heal on low cd, at least as far as the zerkers went. We also didn't have as many options, but most of those "slam" skills weren't even worth considering given the slow speed and high health and thick mob density.

The closest thing I played around with to a "slam" build was doryani's touch/fist. I could get it to hit harder with a warcry rotation but the problem is not liking the playstyle. It's like a bane focused build, where you constantly spam your primary aoe but without the range and a lot more risk to being overwhelmed by targets if they don't die in the first or second hits.

Your typical monsters won't survive long enough to be a threat. But delirium stuff on the otherhand can be a lot more lethal. And if you are going to be dealing with delirium content, even if only occasionally, you want to be able to do it on the character you're heavily investing in.

My original legion cycloner is easily now the most expensively geared character on my account, and there's still a lot of room where I could upgrade him further - but there's no point if I don't like playing him.

As a former MMO player, I'm well aware of what it's like to follow a complex rotation while maintaining constant awareness and adapting if a teammate (or few) should fall. That kind of gameplay doesn't really work in an arpg.

Based on my experiments with doryani's touch and my prior poe experience, I already know I won't like it. I haven't liked summoner builds since D2, but I still managed a 36 in metamorph with one. Doesn't mean I liked it, but that I saw enough potential that my preconceived notions could be wrong.

Right now I'm just trying to find something "fun" to play but nothing is hitting that fix, and that's before including the prerequisite of taking down sirus reliably.

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TorsteinTheFallen wrote:

So, i dig the slow playstyle. I can play fast builds but I enjoy slow ones too.

Since i hate the Harvest league from my guts and it's boring as hell, I tried HC.
Followed Quin69 bleedquake Jugg build and it was great during the leveling. One of the easiest leveling due to solid gear from garden. Died later, nvm...

Damage when i got to the maps fell off like a stone. I took all the damage nodes at that point, 4L 400 pdps, but still.
I have no idea hwo he killed awakener 8 with it since im sure every spell starter will have more dps than his endgame char.

Here is Quin's PoB.
https://pastebin.com/P5Yrm1Hc

Since Sirus is stationary target he has 220,000 bleed dps which is a joke, and his char is pretty solid. Not much can be done to make that damage substantially higher.
Playstyle is super lazy bonking which i liked, but damage feels really lackluster.

Dunno, i'm definitely missing something or uber crafted gear is required.
In my eyes it's ok for slams to rely on Cries but they should be also made around Resolute Technique not flask piano.
Things got complicated too much also tbh. When i take a look at new PoBs, new new cluster jewels, exerted hits and what not, i even lose desire to theorycraft it.

sry for rant

The pastebin didn't import but I looked at his profile so I'm assuming its the 98 HC Harvest Jug. It's basically warcry utilization and maybe that fist of war support. It doesn't seem focused too heavily on bleed with no crimson dance, but more as supplemental since bigger hits mean stronger bleeds.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

Game really needs more deterministic crafting - beastiary was a start, delve was a bit better than essences but allowing players to taste what would normally cost exalts to craft is a reward that goes beyond currency.

I agree.

The thing is, though - that deterministic crafting is difficult to balance. Gate it behind currency, people will it's meant for the "1%". Gate it behind seeds, people will find it "boring". Gate it behind nothing, and it becomes "the norm", and everyone runs around with amazing craft - which makes "amazing" the new "normal".

And when I write "difficult", I mean impossible. Because there are people out there, that don't understand why crafting has to be gated in the first place.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

It doesn't seem focused too heavily on bleed with no crimson dance

Crimson Dance is just one of 2983462976 mechanics in this game, that favors attack speed. Taking CD on a slow character isn't necessarily the way to go.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

The pastebin didn't import but I looked at his profile so I'm assuming its the 98 HC Harvest Jug. It's basically warcry utilization and maybe that fist of war support. It doesn't seem focused too heavily on bleed with no crimson dance, but more as supplemental since bigger hits mean stronger bleeds.

It's a full bleed focused build and he has 220K bleed dps on stationary target. Warcries doesn't affect DoT.

Crimson dance is useless for slow hitter.

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Phrazz wrote:

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

Game really needs more deterministic crafting - beastiary was a start, delve was a bit better than essences but allowing players to taste what would normally cost exalts to craft is a reward that goes beyond currency.

I agree.

The thing is, though - that deterministic crafting is difficult to balance. Gate it behind currency, people will it's meant for the "1%". Gate it behind seeds, people will find it "boring". Gate it behind nothing, and it becomes "the norm", and everyone runs around with amazing craft - which makes "amazing" the new "normal".

And when I write "difficult", I mean impossible. Because there are people out there, that don't understand why crafting has to be gated in the first place.

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

It doesn't seem focused too heavily on bleed with no crimson dance

Crimson Dance is just one of 2983462976 mechanics in this game, that favors attack speed. Taking CD on a slow character isn't necessarily the way to go.

Yeah deterministic crafting balance in a game where power creep is constantly brought up is more than an uphill battle - layering the rng in a spot where it's not impractical but worth the investment in time and resources is not a job I'd want.

And that's a good point with crimson dance - it makes sense not to pick it up not just for the lack of speed but ensuring that only the highest bleed is going at any moment. I really liked that thread of hope slotting though - the different ring sizes aren't easy to visualize.

the damage is the same place it always is, on crit with high multi stacking. You can do that with slams and the new supports/warcries will let you instagib shit but like a vast majority of the people who play slams won't glass cannon it the same way we do with other skills.

I'm not sure the big button setup argument has any merit either, if you have to warcry constantly in the map sure but if you do good boss dps you one shot everything else without warcries. So really we are talking about 3 button presses before a boss thats it :p

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TorsteinTheFallen wrote:

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SeCKSEgai wrote:

The pastebin didn't import but I looked at his profile so I'm assuming its the 98 HC Harvest Jug. It's basically warcry utilization and maybe that fist of war support. It doesn't seem focused too heavily on bleed with no crimson dance, but more as supplemental since bigger hits mean stronger bleeds.

It's a full bleed focused build and he has 220K bleed dps on stationary target. Warcries doesn't affect DoT.

Crimson dance is useless for slow hitter.

Pretty sure the bleed is still based on the damage of the actual hit - warcry isn't going to buff the actual bleed directly but the total damage of the hit inflicting the bleed making it deal more for that bleed.

Crimson dance isn't entirely useless for a slow hitter as you'll still typically be hitting more than once every 5s but losing the extra damage when the target moves pretty much kills the value of taking it on a slow build.

(I did see a number of damage over time on his juggy, but I'd say its really the warcries doing the heavy lifting)