Perhaps stop saying PoE is not pay to win game?

In most players' opinion GGG keeps adding content to the game, that can quickly soak up the initial 4 free stash tabs.

Here's some of the kind of stuff that some of these players have said
1. I am fine with having to set-up and manage my shop manually.
2. I am fine giving up on some core mechanics of the game, because I cannot store the items required/rewarded by it.
3. I am fine with not picking up stuff, that is worth less than 4-5c/inv.space.
4. I am fine selling my stuff far bellow the market price.

I have some sympathy for the players that feel this way. Although I hasten to add that they should not expect the same experience when playing the game as people that pays cash to GGG.

First, I would say that PoE is free to play (f2p).
Second, my sympathy is that it can be argued PoE is pay to win (p2w). It all depends on what your definition of the term p2w means.

I think that it is fine and wise for GGG to create new items in the leagues that take up stash space. It keeps the game fresh and interesting. It coaxes players to buy stash tabs which supplies an important source of income for the company.

I would suggest that GGG may want to more carefully pick their wording when they claim to not be p2w? Perhaps explicitly mentioning that they offer additional stash tabs along with the statement that the game is not p2w?

It is unreasonable to burden the franchise with a term like p2w which is understood differently by many, but most certainly connects the game with a negative stigma. Why have a discussion between only p2w and f2p? Why not use a term like pay4convenience?

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Turtledove wrote:

I would suggest that GGG may want to more carefully pick their wording when they claim to not be p2w? Perhaps explicitly mentioning that they offer additional stash tabs along with the statement that the game is not p2w?

Dunno what else would they say?

In theory you can beat the entire game with 4 regular tabs, in reality only few have the knowledge and dedication to do so.


When I started out in 2014 4 tabs used to be good enough, although I hoarded absolute trash items and had to vendor those regularly. But how would you know as a noob? This item might be good right?

These days and given the amount of new currencies, splinters and what have you - 4 tabs seems to be on the lower side.
That said: Im sure noobs still hoard trash just like I did 6 years ago.


Also I would argue:
If a noob (as in someone who just installed the game and knows nothing) manages to beat the story, then thats a darn good result and you can do this absolutely without trading or the need for more tabs.

Endgame is for more dedicated players and I think its fair to pay a bit at this point for convenience.
If I recall correctly it took me 50+ hrs to beat the story (3x act 1-3 back then) and thats plenty for free.
Most full price games offer less for 60 bucks upfront.
In this context its still a fair statement I think

A free car that doesn't include 4WD and loose suspension for offroading is still a free car.

Yes, you cannot be a trade mogul and hoard thousands of EX with only 4 stash tabs, but you can still beat the game's story, maps, and explore content.

I've played this game for years without spending a cent. SSF'ers do just fine without needing to trade.

Yet, people still want to argue about whether or not it's F2P. It baffles me.

I would agree that, in its current form, POE absolutely counts as a p2w title. You don't have to pay MUCH to be competitive, but having a single premium tab IS a gameplay advantage over everyone stuck with only the standard issue stash.

Is this an unreasonable entry price? I obviously don't think so, I've been playing for years. But the single most important change GGG desperately needs to make to their game is that all players start with a single premium stash tab, in addition to 2-3 standard stash tabs. New players are simply at a MASSIVE disadvantage without one.

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Orbaal wrote:

"

Turtledove wrote:

I would suggest that GGG may want to more carefully pick their wording when they claim to not be p2w? Perhaps explicitly mentioning that they offer additional stash tabs along with the statement that the game is not p2w?

Dunno what else would they say?

In theory you can beat the entire game with 4 regular tabs, in reality only few have the knowledge and dedication to do so.


When I started out in 2014 4 tabs used to be good enough, although I hoarded absolute trash items and had to vendor those regularly. But how would you know as a noob? This item might be good right?

These days and given the amount of new currencies, splinters and what have you - 4 tabs seems to be on the lower side.
That said: Im sure noobs still hoard trash just like I did 6 years ago.


Also I would argue:
If a noob (as in someone who just installed the game and knows nothing) manages to beat the story, then thats a darn good result and you can do this absolutely without trading or the need for more tabs.

Endgame is for more dedicated players and I think its fair to pay a bit at this point for convenience.
If I recall correctly it took me 50+ hrs to beat the story (3x act 1-3 back then) and thats plenty for free.
Most full price games offer less for 60 bucks upfront.
In this context its still a fair statement I think

I played through the complete story line multiple times using only 1 tab when I first started playing. Of course, back then the story line was much shorter.

As far as what GGG might say, perhaps after stating that PoE will never be pay to win. They might just mention something like, "Although, there is a lot of fun loot in the game and so most players are going to want to buy additional stash tabs." At the very least it should reduce the number of these threads on the forum arguing f2p vs p2w. That could just be wishful thinking though?

Without an accepted definition of f2p and p2w this discussion is utterly meaningless.

I feel discussing this is pointless. "Winning" is high subjective and as Deathfairy has pointed out, there is no agreed upon definition of pay to win.

When GGG promised us the game wouldn't turn into pay to win, it was clear what they meant and they have kept their word on that. That is all that matters on this topic.

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Xavathos wrote:

I feel discussing this is pointless. "Winning" is high subjective and as Deathfairy has pointed out, there is no agreed upon definition of pay to win.

When GGG promised us the game wouldn't turn into pay to win, it was clear what they meant and they have kept their word on that. That is all that matters on this topic.

I completely agree with this actually.

The reason I started this thread is that the moderators recently closed a thread on this topic because the opening post was mostly directed at the moderators. (I assume is why it was closed.) I thought the person deserved more of a voice for their view. I didn't agree with much of what they said and so ended changing much more of their opening post than I had initially intended.

It may not be free to play but it definitely is not pay to win.