[3.10] Toxic Rain Trickster 30 Mil Shaper DPS (the best one)
"I watched the excerpt until around 7:23 he said "if you have +4 Carcass Jack..." well there's your answer, if you have mega expensive BIS double corruption on chest you can "save" currency on a bow... TR will always scale with gem levels, he just "solves" it through a chest not bow.
Also yeah, you get more attack speed but less damage per pod due to Quill Rain penalty... you know what's the problem with super high attack speed? Mana. You do see on every clip of his a mana flask and on sirus even both mana and hybrid.
Also from what I see he has only 2 auras (like 25% unreserved mana) and he's a pathfinder, so at least he won't have "oops I ran out of mana flask" issue due to PF flask regen.
Ok, let's check it out, I look his POB aaaand...
https://i.imgur.com/cCHvpE4.png Yep, that's a +4 Carcass Jack!
I price check:
Yep, you can save 10-30 ex on buying a 1 alch quill rain! If you buy a 40ex+ chest...
I put a search and the first pop up was offline 35ex.
You might also pay extra vaals to recolour this thing.
You can self craft a bow with 1 trash affix for around 7-8 ex. 30ex what he's talking is only for all affixes good (dot suffix + attack speed, you can pick one of them and sacrifice the other and it will cost you much less on alts and regals). It's something you can always do, even in SSF, and availability of all mats is there.
Double corrupted chests come only from the Alva temple and the supply of suitable corruptions are very limited.
I wish youtubers would stop bullshitting people, how is that even a "budget" option?
P.S. I think him claiming he can achieve "similar results" with quill rain & non-corrupted Carcass Jack (what he said in comments) is a lie, the math doesn't add up, you get double the attack speed but 30% damage penalty and no gem levels. Also the benefits of extreme attack speed are the first to be lost when you have to move a lot and can't stand and pump your "9 aps". And the mana issue still stands.
Quill rain used to be really good before 3.5 nerf because it only penalized damage with hits from what I know, and any spec that doesn't care about the hit (like TR pods) could abuse it. But now it's 30% less with everything.
Last edited by Viktranka on May 5, 2020, 1:48:39 PM
on May 5, 2020, 1:00:28 PM
"Nope, not every slow counts as hinder.
There are tons of different sources of slow and some of them have a name like:
- temp chains
And some of them don't, Toxic rain says "Each Spore Pod applies 10% less Movement Speed to nearby Enemies, to a maximum of 60%" doesn't say it applies "hinder" or "maim" or anything like that.
Advantage is you can stack different named slows, same as you can stack "onslaught" with other attack speed increases, but you can't stack onslaught with itself.
Sources of hinder are:
- blight / vaal blight (vaal skill has a cooldown / soul limitation, normal blight only works if you have a build around it like bane / ED + blight)
- wither (only up when you have the totem active, so not always)
- aspect of the spider (most reliable imo)
Wiki lists other skills too, but they don't fit much into the build (like abyssal cry).
You could not use spider and just rely on wither totem and the 10% chance to proc on hit from the touch of cruelty, but spider is 15% increased damage taken by mobs, so it's not just the slow it's useful for.
on May 5, 2020, 1:14:11 PM
What about skitterbots? One of then applies chill, so that should be a hinder as well? (oops - need to read closer! it doesn't)
Right now, I an using skitter bots instead of spider, mainly b/c the chill and shock are guaranteed without needing to wait for it wait to stack. In not sure about how much screen they cover. Spider seems to hit everything. The bots seem more localized, but I assume increased area from carcass Jack, etc. Affect those as well?
I'd love to be able to fit bots and spider in, but haven't spent much time thinking on it, as I think I prefer the blind from sand stance.
I also user withering step as my levy click movement, so it is used on cooldown. I guess I get hinder freon that.
Will have to play around and see house to fit it all on without having to resort to a malevolence mana reduction affix on the amulet, as I prefer +dex and chaos dot multi.
Last edited by toxic678 on May 5, 2020, 3:51:45 PM
on May 5, 2020, 2:50:59 PM
"I literally just said maim, chill and temp chains are not hinder. xD
So nope, skitterbots apply chill and shock, and they're separate from aspect of the spider (15% shock from skitter should stack with 15% from spider webs for mob damage taken).
Skitterbots cost 35% of mana though and spider costs 25%.
on May 5, 2020, 3:29:03 PM
Yeah, I know.. Reading is hard.. and I was on mobile.. Tried to edit it before anyone saw it, but not successfully :)
on May 5, 2020, 3:43:17 PM
First thing to note, he's got better gear in most places (gloves, amulet, rings, jewels, etc.) even though he says they could be way better. He also clearly understands the mechanics very well. It's a really well made guide.
How I see it:
I tested in pob with my own character just out of curiosity. Using normal carcass jack plus my bow vs. using quill rain and a +4 carcass jack, the all in DPS is very close to a tie. If you just go quill rain and normal carcass jack, you'll lose about 1/3 of your damage instantly. And as Vik pointed out, it's a bit annoying to hear him go "40 ex bow, 1 alch bow, hahaha look at those idiots" when he's using a 40 ex chest vs my normal carcass jack. And then he goes "don't pay anyone for the chest, just farm up t3 corruption and hit the nuts yourself!" sure bud I'll get right on it.
Now, separately, my character gets a lot more damage. Trickster naturally gets better damage than Pathfinder, plus my tree hits all the chaos stuff up top. The chaos cluster jewels are just better than the bow ones too. So due to gear/tree/jewel difference, even accounting for his +4 carcass jack, he's got about half my dps at the end of it. He even quotes himself at 15 mil.
Tough call here. I've never played Iron Reflexes (or armor in general), so I can't really compare the defense. People generally seem to think it sucks though. It seems both our builds could easily merge into the other in a lot of ways. For instance, he could use Cinderswallow to get some nice recovery that Trickster gets naturally, while I could just anoint Hardened Scars if I wanted some fortify. It won't work as well on long boss fights since you'd need the Pathfinder to recover the charges. I generate endurance charges while mapping from the tree, but they're also not reliable on bosses. I think he trashes Ghost Shrouds a little too much. They have certainly been toned down since they were introduced, but I'm always sitting on 3 with this much evasion/dodge, especially for big hits like Sirus. I might be nut picking, but he doesn't seem that tanky from the videos. He's a Pathfinder with both a life and a hybrid flask though, so he's free to hit those more often.
Pros and cons here too. I use Aspect of the Spider, Touch of Cruelty, Unspeakable Gifts, Witchfire Brew, etc. for mapping, and he's not a big fan. He's got more movespeed and AoE from being Pathfinder. Mana is equally not a problem for either of us, but it's just solved using different means. I get more natural INT from the tree, whereas gets more STR.
It's ultimately personal preference, since I can't compare how you value these things. I still like the Trickster. Honestly pick the ascendancy you like. The Trickster stuff is just effortless, ghost shrouds, patient reaper recovery, escape artist all just work in the background. Pathfinder just solves all problems with flasks. Ultimately the cluster jewels and the gem carry the build so you'll have a super easy time with either.
on May 5, 2020, 3:54:31 PM
Another way to structure it:
Ascendancy, Trickster vs. Pathfinder:
- 50% increased damage
- Life/ES/Mana recovery on kill + increased recovery rate
- 20% more damage
- 20% skill duration
- +3% evade
- stun immunity
- 10% move speed
- ES recovery when hit
- 6% reduced damage taken at max ghost shrouds
- 18% attack and cast speed at max ghost shrouds
- 10% spell dodge
- +150 ES (based on carcass jack)
- +1250 to 1500 evasion rating if using a hubris/vertex
- 16% attack and cast speed, 42% evasion rating, 15% ES, 10% inc damage from the 4 small nodes
- 30% increased damage
- 50% AoE
- 10% more damage
- 20% attack speed
- 15% move speed
- 6% reduced elemental damage taken
- infinite flasks
- flasks have 20% increased effect, 10% increased charge gain, 8% flask duration, 30% increased damage from the 4 small nodes
The AoE, flask recharge, and move speed are nice, but that top list is pretty darn impressive. Pathfinders are super cool in their own right, but I do feel like he was pretty condescending towards Tricksters, like everybody just picks them because they'd too dumb to put any thought into it.
If we assume a +4 chest is available, TR will hit level 28 whether it's in a +3 bow or a +4 chest, so that's a tie. After that you have:
QR = 3.00 APS, 30% less damage
+3 bow = 1.70 APS (with decent attack speed roll), 70% dot multi.
All other factors are either included in the APS of the bow or the gem levels. Considering you probably have about 120% dot multi already from tree/jewels/other gear slots, 70 additional gives you a 290/220 = 1.32 damage multiplier.
So QR = 3.00 * 0.7 = 2.1 scalar
+3 bow = 1.70 * 1.32 = 2.24 scalar
They're going to be very close in the end. Your individual attack speed roll on the bow along with exactly how much dot multi you have on other gear will make the difference.
If you don't have the +4 chest though, the +3 bow will do almost 50% more damage than the QR only due to the gem levels.
on May 5, 2020, 4:53:37 PM
"I could add to that from my own experience, I played iron reflexes pathfinder twice, once in legion with pure toxic rain (when there was no PF TR guide outside of some poison shenanigans and all I could find was typicaldemon's thread for a trickster that starts with "pathfinder is bad, don't play it") and second time now, more focusing on caustic arrow.
I started as typical evasion / dodge acro PF build and it was really squishy (1-shot territory on yellow maps), but PF doesn't have all the trickster goodies which is ghost shrouds w/ stun immunity, extra spell dodge, extra synergy with energy shield, all the stuff.
Back then I dropped acro and went perfect form + iron reflexes and it has an upside and a downside.
Upside is with all flasks up I could hit 8k+ molten shells and 25k+ vaal molten shells that made the build 1-shot proof when MS was up. Well... except dying to ignite from some boss (I think elder guardian) that pushed me to respec from attack speed to ailment immunity branch.
The downside is when MS is on cd or when you fuck up your flask piano, you're vulnerable while trickster's defenses are mostly passive so you don't have to worry about it.
For MS to be good you have to run jade / granite flask of iron skin / reflexes or something similar, armor from the gear pales in comparison to what you get from flasks esp. if you use witchfire brew which is a stibnite so another evasion multiplier.
Obviously this is much easier to pull off on PF than any other class due to passive flask regen.
Same with the trick with hybrid flask + fortify anoint (I've seen it multiple times, recently on scourge arrow PF), I'm not using it because I don't have enough flask slots and also dropping dps anoint makes me sad.
But again if you fuck up flask piano and either forget to press it or press it too much and run out of charges, you can be left with no fortify and no health flask.
You need at least 10k armor active at the moment of pressing molten shell to beat steelskin. The upside is though molten shell is still fairly effective at low gem level while steelskin forces you to build up to 155 str.
Armor on its own doesn't do that much, it's only good if you use molten shell and preferably stack it with other mechanics like endurance charges or fortify.
Evasion on its own doesn't do that much either, but it's useful due to extra goodies Trickster gets from ascendancy (like ES regen based on evasion), and the fact that contrary to armor you can stack it with acro and reach really high dodge.
Personally I wouldn't recommend building iron reflexes on a trickster, I'd rather see someone go CI than that. The ascendancy has in built ES + evasion synergy and 0 armor synergy.
And yes, damage wise trickster has 60% increased and 20% more and it's hard to beat it by anything, it also gives increased skill effect duration. PF has has 60% increased and 10% more, and you can spec for 20% attack speed if you don't care about ailment immunity.
So yes, imo PF is not bad, but Trickster is stronger when you min max for dps.
on May 5, 2020, 4:55:01 PM
im not sure trickster is stronger anymore - its just preference at this point.
i played the fuck out of trickster, but ghost shrouds constantly getting nerfed really hurt it. you can get pretty much the same DPS as PF, and don't undersell the +50% aoe. it basically makes another pod do overlapping damage.
so for instance if you do 300k dps per pod at 4 attacks per second with 3.8 second duration and you can get 4 pods overlapping thats about 18,240,000 dps
but as PF if you can get 250k dps per pod at 4 attacks per second with 3.6 duration and you get 5 pods overlapping because of the boost in aoe....thats 18,000,000 dps
its extremely similar, so offensively i wouldn't really shun one or the other.
trickster has its benefits no doubt, but so does PF. i have tried PF as iron reflexes and i just can't stand it. fuck that shit. getting hit nearly every time just feels terrible and makes you SO VERY susceptible to on-hit effects (ignite, poison, stun, etc) it isn't even funny, or worth doing!
trickster has decent mitigation and such but only IF your ghost shrouds are up, which has just over the nerfs become harder and harder.
again right now im not going to say one is better than the other. i'll just say its whatever you want. i chose PF this league specifically because of the infinite flasks meaning mana is never an issue. literally ever. trickster doesn't get that much QoL and will need to deal with mana issues either by gear restrictions or using EB. if you use EB you lose all of your advantage at trickster hybrid scaling for high EHP.
it isn't a problem that can't be solved, but i didn't wanna tango with it this league, so PF it was.
i've made TONS of TR tricksters in the past though. still solid absolutely.
but ya that guys video and build is pretty bollox. its very deceiving with how he presents things, and im just baffled by his rant at the start of the video about how he thinks TR is under utilized and that there was a severe lack of info about the skill available...i dunno. just confused.
the guy clearly isn't very experienced with the skill itself, and while his build is great its pretty ridiculous the things he says and claims.
on May 6, 2020, 12:04:48 AM
Agreed. You can probably think of this +50 AoE as another independent +10-20% more multiplier, helping to close the damage gap.
Agreed again. Trickster QoL/Defense is conditional upon having ghost shrouds and ES. Pathfinder has everything conditional upon flasks. Neither is "superior" and both can fail. Both require planning a build around, and it's the execution of the plan that will determine success.
I didn't mean to knock Pathfinder, and in my opinion they're close enough to equal to come down to whatever you like playing. The youtube guide video was hating hard on Trickster, so perhaps I didn't balance my tone properly in my defense.
I actually have a lvl 93 poison scourge arrow pathfinder already made this league, so I might experiment converting it to TR to see how it feels. Depends on how adventurous I'm feeling.
Last edited by rlauren2 on May 6, 2020, 11:47:47 AM
on May 6, 2020, 11:45:06 AM