Can we stop pretending that Path of Exile is free to play?

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Boem wrote:

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yamface wrote:

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ajo wrote:

https://www.pathofexile.com/game

I never bothered to check the front page of this website but that message about "never pay to win" is intellectual dishonesty.

It isn't and ajo is moving the goal post.

If you want to claim "pay 2 win" then you would first need to define "win".

As far as PoE is concerned, beating the game and reaching level 100 is the objective "win" scenario.(all other win conditions are inventions by the community and meta-win conditions, for example economical prowess etc)

These are all achievable with 4 stash tabs.

The counter-argument that more stash tabs saves you time on this endevour is redundant because it doesn't prevent you from reaching it.
Getting to level 100 after the first person in a league made it doesn't invalidate your "win condition".

Your no longer "beating the game" in such a scenario, but playing pvp and beating another player, which is a meta-win condition and community generated.

All of these points do nothing to the first principles

1) the game is F2P
2) the game is not P2W

They only infringe on the first principles if you do mental gymnastics and take into account community generated win conditions for which GGG take no responsibility.

Peace,

-Boem-

I've "beat" a ton of P2W mobile games without ever spending a dime. These, "You dont have to spend money to beat the game" posts are kinds silly, tbh.

I mean seriously, if competitive is all you guys consider P2W, then please list me some games, because that narrows it down to primarily PvP games, and I cant think of many of those off the top of my head. Those would actually be in the minority of games.

P2W aspects in most games, are very similar to stash pages in PoE. They are convenience things, or locked behind paywalls, or offer efficiency/ease of use/whatever.

As a mobile game player, where the biggest P2W issues you will ever find exist, its funny seeing this argument parroted so much here. Just about any P2W mobile game you play, can be played easily, beat, and even be competitive in, without spending a dime. But they are still considered heavily P2W.

I do consider stash pages to fall into that category, because they are 100% locked behind a paywall, do give advantages, no matter how slight you think(I could never go back to not using any), and I own like 50 of them and every special page and don't care either way. GGG could sell items for all I care.

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Destructodave wrote:

I've "beat" a ton of P2W mobile games without ever spending a dime. These, "You dont have to spend money to beat the game" posts are kinds silly, tbh.

I mean seriously, if competitive is all you guys consider P2W, then please list me some games, because that narrows it down to primarily PvP games, and I cant think of many of those off the top of my head. Those would actually be in the minority of games.

P2W aspects in most games, are very similar to stash pages in PoE. They are convenience things, or locked behind paywalls, or offer efficiency/ease of use/whatever.

As a mobile game player, where the biggest P2W issues you will ever find exist, its funny seeing this argument parroted so much here. Just about any P2W mobile game you play, can be played easily, beat, and even be competitive in, without spending a dime. But they are still considered heavily P2W.

I do consider stash pages to fall into that category, because they are 100% locked behind a paywall, do give advantages, no matter how slight you think(I could never go back to not using any), and I own like 50 of them and every special page and don't care either way. GGG could sell items for all I care.

P2W is the ability to translate real money in game assets to fascilitate a win condition.(most obvious examples are offering items or levels for money)

The fact that you beat "p2w" games by not spending a dime doesn't invalidate the fact the game creators offer those services in any way.(making the game p2w)

I'm not even certain if your argumenting against my position or not, since i explicitly stated that "pvp oriented arguments" are fallacy's in regars to PoE because they don't partain to the fundamental "win condition" the game offers.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Redthorne82 wrote:

Or, that it's not pay to win. Either format works.

Good god you're all wonderful. Just putting this here so you all realize the actual title was a bit of clickbait (obviously).

The first line was actually the question I was asking, and some of you did wonderfully talking about it. Man, the people that actually think it's hard to understand "free to play" though is hilarious.

Lots of good chuckles to be had.

Of course it's free to play.

The real question (that got touched on many times) is whether it's FUN to see all the content for free.

The resounding answer I got through here is "maybe" or "depends on who you are."

Yup. Approximately the overall vibe I was expecting.

Personally, I don't think I'd enjoy playing on four tabs anymore. Too much cool stuff to gather.

I know you don't need all the div cards, or 20 of each organ...

But if ARPGs aren't about being a little loot goblin all day...why even play them? :D

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ajo wrote:

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Boem wrote:

P2W is the ability to translate real money in game assets to fascilitate a win condition.

Nope, it's when you can pay real money for advantages. The more advantages, time saves & conveniences you can buy, the more pay-to-win the game becomes.

Exactly. THats what I mean by these people having such a narrow viewpoint on p2w.

This "win" condition isn't even met in P2W mobile games, much less whatever imaginary games they can never list.

Paying for advantages and convenience are the primary p2w factors in gaming. Even in mobile games, most of the time you are buying advantages, in the form of rolls, game time, boosts, various things. And whats even funnier, is most of the games still have full access to all content; it might just be harder to get for a f2p player. I can still pull the best unit in the game in a p2w mobile game. I can still buy stash pages, I can buy basically anything with time spent; hell, most of them even offer cosmetics from game time. Thats why its pretty hilarious that PoE stash pages are still behind a paywall, when even mobile games arent that strict. Most have ways to earn their currency.

I'm still waiting on examples of p2w games from these people if they dont consider stash pages to fall into that category, give me some game examples to debate with.

THe real issue here, is these people dont want to fall under the label p2w players. They cant even tell you any games that falls into their categories. BUt they can tell you this one they play isnt.

Even in the mobile market, advantages and convenience are the vast majority, and i mean vast, of all p2w you run into. We can also throw out the token wikipedia definition, which gets posted often and glossed over: "In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers." ANY advantage. Thats tabs.

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Cheydinhal wrote:

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ZaeN wrote:

Agree with OP, rates and stash are too targeted into that direction, it is definitely more expensive than buying a 35 wolcen

I found out the stash limit is definitely targeted when i tried poe on ps4 and there once i started mapping and getting a messy stash i did some math and said oh no im not going to dump another 60$ minimum just to have a stash that allows me to get into final ocntent.

I had my fun, i spent the amount of 10-20 wolcens/GDs/LEs/Chaosbanes, for every single upgrade i probably farmed total rng crap for the time amount of 2-3 of wolcens. I am actually happy that wolcen got only a handful of hours to reach the limit instead of making me waste a thousand++

Totally bullshyt, I've played alot this leaugue, and I have spend 2 times 20 bucks on this game, 1 of spend half on MTX. So I spend 30 euro on stash tabs.

I have 10 stash tabs and a currency and a map. It's all you ever need. I have thought about the other tab and or more tabs alot of times. Especially this league as I played alot...but it wont help me anything....so I decided not to...


People who think p2win should think of this....buying a stash tab will indeed help you to kill the awakener faster....so purely watching this point then it is pay2win....
But how much faster are we talking about here? Lets say with equal luck it will be doable in 100 hours (totally random number here) and with tabs you can do it in about 80-90 hours....

In a normal f2p but also p2win mmo....you can just spend 5000 euro instantly and become the strongest player out there being able to kill awakener in about 10 hours.......this is simple not doable in path of exile, even if you spend a 10000000000 euro on this game, its still 80-90 hours.....

In fact I'm willingly to bet that I'm WAY more effective with 10 stash tabs + currency/maps then any1 else is with every single tab and having 50 tabs.....it can never be organized as good that you know exactly where to search....I see the streamers spend countless minutes searching for the item they know they have...which never happens becuz i know every single item in my 12 stash tabs...

"Totally" lol
With that baseline tabs setup, not only you're wasting your time farming in this game, you're wasting more time sorting the gazilion fragments, cards, essences, whatever doesnt fit.
And in the end of the day you still had to spend X to get at least tabs + currency + maps

Fuck man people here is so edgy i guess the unending farming hurts the mind

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Destructodave wrote:

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ajo wrote:

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Boem wrote:

P2W is the ability to translate real money in game assets to fascilitate a win condition.

Nope, it's when you can pay real money for advantages. The more advantages, time saves & conveniences you can buy, the more pay-to-win the game becomes.

Exactly. THats what I mean by these people having such a narrow viewpoint on p2w.

This "win" condition isn't even met in P2W mobile games, much less whatever imaginary games they can never list.

Paying for advantages and convenience are the primary p2w factors in gaming. Even in mobile games, most of the time you are buying advantages, in the form of rolls, game time, boosts, various things. And whats even funnier, is most of the games still have full access to all content; it might just be harder to get for a f2p player. I can still pull the best unit in the game in a p2w mobile game. I can still buy stash pages, I can buy basically anything with time spent; hell, most of them even offer cosmetics from game time. Thats why its pretty hilarious that PoE stash pages are still behind a paywall, when even mobile games arent that strict. Most have ways to earn their currency.

I'm still waiting on examples of p2w games from these people if they dont consider stash pages to fall into that category, give me some game examples to debate with.

THe real issue here, is these people dont want to fall under the label p2w players. They cant even tell you any games that falls into their categories. BUt they can tell you this one they play isnt.

Even in the mobile market, advantages and convenience are the vast majority, and i mean vast, of all p2w you run into. We can also throw out the token wikipedia definition, which gets posted often and glossed over: "In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers." ANY advantage. Thats tabs.

You realize that having more stash tabs doesn't influence your character strength right?

Being a hoarder doesn't correlate to more powerfull characters, in fact in PoE the opposite is true.

There is no "gameplay" advantage.

Seriously go define your win conditions for PoE and bring me your definition then maybe we can have a sensible disagreement.
I'm using GGG's win conditions for my metrics since were talking about PoE, but thats just me.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Boem wrote:

You realize that having more stash tabs doesn't influence your character strength right?

Being a hoarder doesn't correlate to more powerfull characters, in fact in PoE the opposite is true.

There is no "gameplay" advantage.

Seriously go define your win conditions for PoE and bring me your definition then maybe we can have a sensible disagreement.
I'm using GGG's win conditions for my metrics since were talking about PoE, but thats just me.

Peace,

-Boem-

No, you are arguing from your own opinion on P2W, which is wrong anywhere outside of this forum. On the Wiki, on plenty of sites, by players of various other games. Its literally JUST this community, and not all of them mind you, since I'm also a part of it, that believes otherwise.

The real issue is you guys arguing in such an illogical absolute. Look, we can argue degrees of P2W all day. Is PoE's P2W bad? No. Its not as bad as a lot of games. But to argue its not P2W at all, well thats just foolish. You could ask people outside of this community; people who play mobile games, people who play other games. I guarantee you they would tell you its P2W. YOu ask them if paying for inventory stash that players cannot earn in game, if its P2w or not. I bet you the majority of people would say yes it is.

I get it. The people here dont want to be consider filthy p2w players. Well, that ship sailed once in-game content(not cosmetic) started getting sold. For example, I dont think League of Legends is that p2w at all; but you can still buy champions, and save untold amounts of time and in-game currency unlocking them. Even if, they dont win games.

I'm having a sensible disagreement. Im the only person posting examples while you guys just keep sticking your head in the same and literally focusing on the "win" condition.

I mean read the wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

"In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers."

Stash pages are an advantage no matter how you guys want to say otherwise. If they were meaningless, they wouldn't sell. Its almost crazy how you guys ignore the actual definition of Pay 2 Win to fit your narratives, and just hone in on "win" as your argument.

I dont understand how you cant get the point that paying for advantages, is infact, pay to win. When stuff veers out of the realm of cosmetic, and becomes gameplay features, that is paying for advantages others don't have. How does that not make sense?

And again, give me some examples of games, where your definition of Pay to Win exists. Actual games. Not some hypothetical "buying X item" stuff. I want actual examples of all these Pay 2 Win games that fit your specific win condition.

My win condition is simple. Its advantages. Advantages over other players no matter how small.

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Destructodave wrote:

The real issue is you guys arguing in such an illogical absolute. Look, we can argue degrees of P2W all day. Is PoE's P2W bad? No. Its not as bad as a lot of games. But to argue its not P2W at all, well thats just foolish.

...

I'm having a sensible disagreement. Im the only person posting examples while you guys just keep sticking your head in the same and literally focusing on the "win" condition.

I mean read the wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

"In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers."

Stash pages are an advantage no matter how you guys want to say otherwise. If they were meaningless, they wouldn't sell. Its almost crazy how you guys ignore the actual definition of Pay 2 Win to fit your narratives, and just hone in on "win" as your argument.

I dont understand how you cant get the point that paying for advantages, is infact, pay to win. When stuff veers out of the realm of cosmetic, and becomes gameplay features, that is paying for advantages others don't have. How does that not make sense?

...

My win condition is simple. Its advantages. Advantages over other players no matter how small.

Not sure who you guys really refers to? For myself, I argued that PoE is free to play. By your definition of Pay to win, PoE is also pay to win but a relatively very "mild" version of pay to win. You also make a strong argument that your definition of pay to win is the most widely held definition.

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Turtledove wrote:

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Destructodave wrote:

The real issue is you guys arguing in such an illogical absolute. Look, we can argue degrees of P2W all day. Is PoE's P2W bad? No. Its not as bad as a lot of games. But to argue its not P2W at all, well thats just foolish.

...

I'm having a sensible disagreement. Im the only person posting examples while you guys just keep sticking your head in the same and literally focusing on the "win" condition.

I mean read the wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

"In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers."

Stash pages are an advantage no matter how you guys want to say otherwise. If they were meaningless, they wouldn't sell. Its almost crazy how you guys ignore the actual definition of Pay 2 Win to fit your narratives, and just hone in on "win" as your argument.

I dont understand how you cant get the point that paying for advantages, is infact, pay to win. When stuff veers out of the realm of cosmetic, and becomes gameplay features, that is paying for advantages others don't have. How does that not make sense?

...

My win condition is simple. Its advantages. Advantages over other players no matter how small.

Not sure who you guys really refers to? For myself, I argued that PoE is free to play. By your definition of Pay to win, PoE is also pay to win but a relatively very "mild" version of pay to win. You also make a strong argument that your definition of pay to win is the most widely held definition.

Yes, thats what I'm talking about. We can debate the degree of P2W. And I agree; very mild. But to say absolutely NO, well thats about the same as these people saying PoE is not F2P.

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Destructodave wrote:

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I directly adressed your point when i mentioned gameplay, not sure why you decided to respond if you didn't read my post to begin with.

I played this game for three years on four stash tabs and i didn't suddenly start to win after i bought them.
If anything, i started to play slower and less efficient as a result of it.

Not exactly "win conditions" in the grand sheme of things and you still haven't defined what your arguing are the "win conditions" that stash tabs unlock.

The ability to hoard isn't a win condition.

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ajo wrote:

It directly influences you game efficiency which in turn influences your wealth. The less hassle you have from deliberate throttling game play design (and being able to bypass/reduce the impact of it with cash), the more time you have to do anything else that's more profitable. Blatant pay-to-win mechanics. There really is no question about it.

Wealth isn't a win condition in PoE but a pvp element among players, it doesn't restrict you from completing the game or reaching lvl 100.

As for game efficiency, that's a fallacy since hoarding makes you slower and reduces the overall accumulation of wealth.(= look at every high level item filter and its restrictions to prevent hoarding or unnecesary slow-downs)

Your arguments are off-base and only demonstrate you have no clue about
end-game in PoE or efficient strategy's.

The highest wealth in a league is accumulated by speed in the first week and securing yourself in the economy in that period.
For the perhaps fifth time, hoarding prevents efficiency, go talk with any of the high level players or market dominaters instead of deducing things from your fantasy perception it doesn't hold up to reality.

Your argument is so redundant because it bassicaly says "SSF has no win conditions", which should be blatantly obvious to be false.

Peace,

-Boem-