GDC Talk - "Cursed Problems in Game Design"

nice vid

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Deathfairy wrote:

No one has yet to provide a non terrible solution. While i am sure i will never change you opinion that does not mean i will or should stop pointing blunt issues in you "logic".

Deathfairy, your method of arguing is saying nothing should be done until it has been proven successful in a game exactly like PoE in every regard.

There is no point continuing that discussion. Thats your opinion and its about as valid as me saying something like... I dont know "the fact that PoE has never tried an AH is proof it will work". Both are stupid arguments.

There are no games exactly like PoE in every regard, hence if your condition is it must be proven in a an exact game, its a dead end circular argument.

By that logic, they shouldnt have had leagues. Or the big talent tree shared by 7 classes. Or anything else, because it hadn't been proven in a game exactly like PoE in every regard.

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trixxar wrote:

must be proven in a an exact game.

No one is talking about an "exact game" like PoE. They are talking about the genre of Hack'n Slash ARPG's. That's A LOT of games there for you to compare with, where trading has ALWAYS been a hot topic, and (almost?) none have pulled it off. Going outside the genre itself to compare, will be like comparing Mohammad Ali to Babe Ruth as to whom is the greatest athlete.

2020 where people still think an AH is beneficial in PoE's economy.

Because somehow they will benefit from it while the top market players will not.

Not even gonna mention the unintented consequences, go read a "gieb ah" thread for a litany of exposés on the topic.

People don't seem to comprehend that not having an AH is actually a great way to level the playing field between top players and regular ones.

Peace,

-Boem-

Ah what a thread. Nothing new tbh over the last few years this has been debated. Let's touch on a few points though.

1. Chris basically wrote the manifesto. It would be a huge amount of pride swallowing to go back on it, and being infused with MILLIONS of dollars certainly hasnt increased his humility in this regard.

2. No good solution or planned alternative suit to PoE's currency systems. It would be a nightmare to introduce a "normal" AH we are familiar with.

3. Gear is not really looted anymore (aside from crafting bases). PoE has become a currency looter that is used in crafting (with some trading). This basically invalidates part of the gear progression arguement. The other part is that power creep has moved so far that skill gems and rando gear(with tabula) can easily get you to yellow maps, if not further.

My proposal? Use the league/temp leagues to try something out.

League Name: Caravan

Basic fucntion: Wandering desert/Arabic type NPC, with their own currency (similar to Cadiro). This NPC basically has their own stash tab that you can put gear into to sell. This is for Gear only, no gems/currency/div cards etc..

Advanced functionality: Basically the coins earned in this caravan trading system can then be exchanged out for real PoE currency items in an set rate. So exalt is 10,000 coins, chaos is 100 coins, alch is 50 coins, ect...

Advantages: amount of gear in this AH is controlled to a degree (minus mules). Exchange rates can be controlled and adjusted. GGG can monitor progression and usage, see what items are popular.

At least then GGG can evaluate impact and see how a limited market would react.

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trixxar wrote:

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Deathfairy wrote:

No one has yet to provide a non terrible solution. While i am sure i will never change you opinion that does not mean i will or should stop pointing blunt issues in you "logic".

Deathfairy, your method of arguing is saying nothing should be done until it has been proven successful in a game exactly like PoE in every regard.

There is no point continuing that discussion. Thats your opinion and its about as valid as me saying something like... I dont know "the fact that PoE has never tried an AH is proof it will work". Both are stupid arguments.

There are no games exactly like PoE in every regard, hence if your condition is it must be proven in a an exact game, its a dead end circular argument.

By that logic, they shouldnt have had leagues. Or the big talent tree shared by 7 classes. Or anything else, because it hadn't been proven in a game exactly like PoE in every regard.

The pit falls of AH have been pointed out, they happened in every other game with AH, every other game with AH either failed or have some sort of trade barriers, bind on pick up, terrible search functionality etc. As much as you don't like D3 example this is by FAR closest example and very vivid one at that. You keep claiming it was different game same thing wont happen in POE (and then use Wow as example of successful AH, conveniently forgetting its much farther from poe then D3) . That is just bull, they are extremely similar in most regards. To say it will be different you have to at least try to understand why it didn't work in d3 and why the same issue will not happen in poe.

Having a different opinion is one thing, being oblivious to basic facts and realities of trade are very different.

"I think trade should be easier then it is now" - that is an opinion, one i disagree with personally but a valid opinion never the less.

"POE needs AH and it will not cause drastic negative changes" - that is just being oblivious to reality and basic logic.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

3. Gear is not really looted anymore (aside from crafting bases). PoE has become a currency looter that is used in crafting (with some trading). This basically invalidates part of the gear progression arguement. The other part is that power creep has moved so far that skill gems and rando gear(with tabula) can easily get you to yellow maps, if not further.

While this is true currently GGG stated they want to change that, it is not however simple to do, but tons of incursion items from metamorphs is a small step in that direction. So rather then accepting this state of thing we should ask for better dropped loot and eliminated the core problem.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

3. Gear is not really looted anymore (aside from crafting bases). PoE has become a currency looter that is used in crafting (with some trading). This basically invalidates part of the gear progression arguement.

This is a personal statement, though. YOU don't loot gear anymore. Or "the most efficient way is to not loot gear", which is more or less irrelevant, as trading will always be the most efficient way to gear a character, no matter how it's implemented. Tens of thousands of "looted" items are being traded every day, which, as you so eloquently put it; "invalidates your argument".

There has to be room for both:
1) "I value my progression, and I will therefore focus of finding MOST of my items myself"
2) "I'm going for efficiency, and will therefore trade for everything as soon as I can afford it"

...Within the same economy. That's where the "curse" lies. But there's still thousands of players seeking "my own adventure"-style gameplay, supplemented by small amounts of trade. There has to be room for them too. And as you - and a lot of other players already don't "loot" items, will an AH increase the "loot gear player's" experience? Or will it maybe hurt their experience indirectly, when all balance decisions in the future are being made with said AH in mind?

That said, your idea of a temp league is interesting, as it encourages looting more. Question: How would these NPC's "price check" your items? What separates a "good" item from a "bad" item in their eyes?

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elesham4ever wrote:

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1453R wrote:

Grinding Gear’s caught squarely on the horns of this particular Cursed Problem – they cannot eliminate trade entirely the way Diablo did, but they cannot just “solve” the problem either as any ‘solution’ irrevocably destroys something else they’re trying to do.

Only if you believe Chris Wilson's excuse. I think the truth is the team just cant figure out how to build one that would meet expectations. That or the thing they're "trying to do" is bog players down in a bad system out of fear that if we spend more time playing the game than we do alt-tabbing to webpages and sending unanswered trade requests then we might get bored even faster than we already do.

An AH would be awesome (if done right) and anyone who wants to sell me on this unfounded notion that it would somehow be a detriment can save their breath. In fact the only excuse I'd half way accept is that the dev team just has too much on their hands as it is and cant take on a project of this scale right now. Of course all they would need to do to address that is fire their army of net nanny chat mods and hire some more programmers but then who would do the bidding of the Chinese wrong-think suppression machine then? /eyeroll

Agreed with this.

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Phrazz wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

3. Gear is not really looted anymore (aside from crafting bases). PoE has become a currency looter that is used in crafting (with some trading). This basically invalidates part of the gear progression arguement.

This is a personal statement, though. YOU don't loot gear anymore. Or "the most efficient way is to not loot gear", which is more or less irrelevant, as trading will always be the most efficient way to gear a character, no matter how it's implemented. Tens of thousands of "looted" items are being traded every day, which, as you so eloquently put it; "invalidates your argument".

There has to be room for both:
1) "I value my progression, and I will therefore focus of finding MOST of my items myself"
2) "I'm going for efficiency, and will therefore trade for everything as soon as I can afford it"

...Within the same economy. That's where the "curse" lies. But there's still thousands of players seeking "my own adventure"-style gameplay, supplemented by small amounts of trade. There has to be room for them too. And as you - and a lot of other players already don't "loot" items, will an AH increase the "loot gear player's" experience? Or will it maybe hurt their experience indirectly, when all balance decisions in the future are being made with said AH in mind?

That said, your idea of a temp league is interesting, as it encourages looting more. Question: How would these NPC's "price check" your items? What separates a "good" item from a "bad" item in their eyes?

First, no doubt there is a variety of play-styles. Some people pick up everything. Some do chaos/regal recipes, some only pick up jewelry, etc...

That doesn't make a progression statement more or less valid. You could say if I had no filter and picked up everything, I would find upgrades. While sure that's true, it would be brutal. Of course I cant speak for everyone, but it's my suspicion that most everyone uses a filter, and has some looting habits.

My league idea could work a couple of ways (to account for SSF).

First there is a nonpublic interaction with the npc that bases value on the tiers of rolls and relative desirability (ie life/es/resistance weighted heavier similar to rarity drops on catalysts this league).

Second there is a public-trade option with all players. Essentially the NPC has a premium tab that is public and can sell items you put it in there for the price you select.(in the NPC currency) It then functions like a traditional AH with search features, etc...

I have more details about this, but I dont want to totally derail this thread lol.