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Skyfruit wrote:
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jeois wrote:
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Skyfruit wrote:
But in mathematical sense it will be either completely random like it is now or it will have a some sort of hierarchical formula where people will quickly figure out how to optimise it for best return and than the 5L and 6L will flood and become worthless. It always happens in games with high value items. There's really only 2 ways of doing it, either everything or nothing. This is one those things that cannot be balanced.
So i rather have something to OCD for and not getting the best quickly and than loose all interest in the game.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but that's just completely wrong. There are plenty of suggestions that aren't "everything or nothing", as you put it.
For instance, if 6L takes an average of 1200 fusings right now, and you increase the average to 3000 needed (while still having an element of RNG but not as purely random), how in the world will that make 6L worthless? Even if people figure out the formula, it doesn't change the fact that they need to get 3000 fusings. It would be rarer and less common.
Also, the current mechanic allows you to get 6L very quickly, so a better question would be, would you quit the game when you get 6L in an hour as opposed to someone who got it after grinding for weeks?
Well it should work, doesn't it? But if it takes average 1200 Fus to get 6L, than as you say 3000 to get it for certain, people will rage that it TAKES 3000 TO GET 6L. It will be F@#$ing typical mass rage as always from these people: OMG WTF 3000 Fus for 6L, GGG make 6L for 200 Fus, it's stupid, or quit, you than f*&% you.
EXAMPLE:
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gonzaw wrote:
Ehmm....if 6L takes 3000 fusings (or just 1500 fusings) I'd never, and I mean never even try to get a 6L.
That's just too much bro. I have 7 fusings right now :(
I'm not raging other than just straight up tell you I would 100% ignore 6Ls in the game.
If EVERYBODY got a 6L and like it was impossible to make a build without 6L (basically if I'm feeling forced to get a 6L), I'd get pretty pissed then.
The only thing I'd be pissed about is how they would be "wasting" a pretty cool mechanic just on the "hardcore" guys that play and grind 10 hours a day, while completely removing that gameplay mechanic for other types of players.
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Posted bygonzaw#3022on Mar 20, 2013, 3:07:49 PM
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johnKeys wrote:
I hope now you understood my point: you can't possibly solo the hardest difficulty in this game without at least one 6-socket 5-link, because you either need all the active skills and support gems you can get, or truly super-human reflexes like people in Japan who win a "Bullet-Hell" game without losing a single "life".
especially if you were foolish enough to play pure-melee, like me.
so no - those items are not "luxury". they're a must towards end-game, but the currency required to buy them or craft them is way too rare if you're not part of the "Path Of Exile Elite".
you can win without equipped uniques, but you can't win if you can't use most of the skill gems at your disposal.
No you can solo everything without 5-6link. I did it on my 2nd char(melee/evasion)with only self found gear . I also came pretty close doing it in Hardcore mode on melee as well. I also soloed lvl 70 with 4links
Its not a question of possible . Its a question of how fun it is .its not. I dont like playing build with 4links tops and its plain not fun to play undergeared character
IGN Nordes
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Posted bydark_madmax#3928on Mar 20, 2013, 3:13:40 PM
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johnKeys wrote:
Skyfruit, I did earn those skill and support gems - that's the whole point.
they dropped from rare mobs, unique mobs and bosses. I got them by doing quests. I got my character to a high enough level to use them, by farming the same areas again and again like it's a part-time job and not a game, and by trading valuable currency which came from hours of painstaking farming, for them.
no offence, but your claim is ridiculous. it's as if Diablo 2 had a high chance to nullify an entire skill tree, each time you tried to put a point you earned into a skill you liked.
I despise Diablo 3 - in part because of it's next-to-null drop-rates force you to take-out your wallet and visit the RMAH - but currently Path Of Exile has even topped it's lousiness, by making your active skills and your ability to use them into a function of RNG as well.
and if you really don't see what's wrong with that, then I really have no motivation to keep explaining myself.
You have a good point about D2 you couldn't loose all taken skill points. But if you remember at first there was no way you could respec either. All point placements were permanent, they introduced respecs very late in the game. Anyway skill tree isn't an item, you can switch the item with no problem, but you can't switch skill tree in D2. And in POE if you want to get 6L, than if you can afford 1 5L so why don't you get 2 5L which suits you and than try to roll 6L on the one item which you can run without while trying your luck on 6L? I mean still have all the fun or frustration out of game and the game isn't D3/WOW rubbish. Maybe not the best solution theory, but best in reality.
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Posted byDeletedon Mar 20, 2013, 3:25:44 PM
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gonzaw wrote:
I'm not raging other than just straight up tell you I would 100% ignore 6Ls in the game.
If EVERYBODY got a 6L and like it was impossible to make a build without 6L (basically if I'm feeling forced to get a 6L), I'd get pretty pissed then.
The only thing I'd be pissed about is how they would be "wasting" a pretty cool mechanic just on the "hardcore" guys that play and grind 10 hours a day, while completely removing that gameplay mechanic for other types of players.
Well than it's not a problem with 5L or 6L, it's problem with skill support balance. You have to give GGG a slack because it's really very difficult thing to balance. I hope they will manage it though, because i already like the game very much.
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Posted byDeletedon Mar 20, 2013, 3:30:39 PM
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Skyfruit wrote:
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gonzaw wrote:
I'm not raging other than just straight up tell you I would 100% ignore 6Ls in the game.
If EVERYBODY got a 6L and like it was impossible to make a build without 6L (basically if I'm feeling forced to get a 6L), I'd get pretty pissed then.
The only thing I'd be pissed about is how they would be "wasting" a pretty cool mechanic just on the "hardcore" guys that play and grind 10 hours a day, while completely removing that gameplay mechanic for other types of players.
Well than it's not a problem with 5L or 6L, it's problem with skill support balance. You have to give GGG a slack because it's really very difficult thing to balance. I hope they will manage it though, because i already like the game very much.
Well...yeah
The need for 5L or 6L would indeed be rooted in balance issues with the game (if not they wouldn't be "needed").
The problems of the support skills (rooted in game balance) kind of stem in 3 areas (IMO):
1)Cost of abilities and management of it
2)Lack of DPS scaling relative to the level you are in
3)Survivability
Let's start with the easy one, (3)
In some builds, you see the "need" to get Life Leech, LoH, and even Spell Totem and the like (for tanking).
In most builds, at least one of those is a "guaranteed" slot as support gem somewhere in your gear, thus upping the need for links, from 3L to 4L, or from 5L to 6L, etc.
1)Basically why you "need" to get BM, or BM+LoH, or Mana Leech, or Reduced Mana, etc.
Again, theses are basically "required" (for any general build, not taking extremes like an EB one or a BM one, etc), again upping the need for links
Just with those two, you basically need 2 more links in any "attack" skill you have and the like.
But then again, if you have a single attack skill, that means you just need a 3L and that's it right?
Well, if skill gems DPS scaled well relative to the levels you are in then it's true.
However I doubt you'll get anywhere with a single skill with no DPS enhancement (with support skills). If you don't die you'll waste like 10 minutes killing a single monster.
Thus, you need DPS enhancing support gems....and most of the time you need a lot of them
All of this bundled together basically means you need 5L-6L in the general cases.
Yes, if you are an awesome theory crafter and know the game inside out and are super expert and shit you can create a build that circumvents that and makes you faceroll the game easily (if also you can get the required gear).
That's only like 1% of the player base I'd assume though. Everybody else would " need" 5L-6L....at least if they want to progress "normally" through the game.
So yeah, balancing the game better and decreasing the "dependency" of 5L-6L would actually like 100% solve this problem (as long as 3L-4L are still relatively easy to obtain)
I still kind of like my suggestions, even if game is re-balanced or not.
inb4 "everybody that needs 5L-6L just sucks and should l2p"
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Posted bygonzaw#3022on Mar 20, 2013, 9:19:00 PM
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Skyfruit wrote:
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johnKeys wrote:
Skyfruit, I did earn those skill and support gems - that's the whole point.
they dropped from rare mobs, unique mobs and bosses. I got them by doing quests. I got my character to a high enough level to use them, by farming the same areas again and again like it's a part-time job and not a game, and by trading valuable currency which came from hours of painstaking farming, for them.
no offence, but your claim is ridiculous. it's as if Diablo 2 had a high chance to nullify an entire skill tree, each time you tried to put a point you earned into a skill you liked.
I despise Diablo 3 - in part because of it's next-to-null drop-rates force you to take-out your wallet and visit the RMAH - but currently Path Of Exile has even topped it's lousiness, by making your active skills and your ability to use them into a function of RNG as well.
and if you really don't see what's wrong with that, then I really have no motivation to keep explaining myself.
You have a good point about D2 you couldn't loose all taken skill points. But if you remember at first there was no way you could respec either. All point placements were permanent, they introduced respecs very late in the game. Anyway skill tree isn't an item, you can switch the item with no problem, but you can't switch skill tree in D2. And in POE if you want to get 6L, than if you can afford 1 5L so why don't you get 2 5L which suits you and than try to roll 6L on the one item which you can run without while trying your luck on 6L? I mean still have all the fun or frustration out of game and the game isn't D3/WOW rubbish. Maybe not the best solution theory, but best in reality.
D2 not having a very minor form of respec (similar to PoE/TQ) was actually an problem, not a benefit.
It was a minor problem though, because people just followed guides. Its not really comparable to losing your skills due to RNG, or not being able to equip better gear because you will lose skill points
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Posted bydeteego#6606on Mar 20, 2013, 9:22:24 PM
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gonzaw wrote:
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Skyfruit wrote:
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gonzaw wrote:
I'm not raging other than just straight up tell you I would 100% ignore 6Ls in the game.
If EVERYBODY got a 6L and like it was impossible to make a build without 6L (basically if I'm feeling forced to get a 6L), I'd get pretty pissed then.
The only thing I'd be pissed about is how they would be "wasting" a pretty cool mechanic just on the "hardcore" guys that play and grind 10 hours a day, while completely removing that gameplay mechanic for other types of players.
Well than it's not a problem with 5L or 6L, it's problem with skill support balance. You have to give GGG a slack because it's really very difficult thing to balance. I hope they will manage it though, because i already like the game very much.
Well...yeah
The need for 5L or 6L would indeed be rooted in balance issues with the game (if not they wouldn't be "needed").
The problems of the support skills (rooted in game balance) kind of stem in 3 areas (IMO):
1)Cost of abilities and management of it
2)Lack of DPS scaling relative to the level you are in
3)Survivability
Let's start with the easy one, (3)
In some builds, you see the "need" to get Life Leech, LoH, and even Spell Totem and the like (for tanking).
In most builds, at least one of those is a "guaranteed" slot as support gem somewhere in your gear, thus upping the need for links, from 3L to 4L, or from 5L to 6L, etc.
1)Basically why you "need" to get BM, or BM+LoH, or Mana Leech, or Reduced Mana, etc.
Again, theses are basically "required" (for any general build, not taking extremes like an EB one or a BM one, etc), again upping the need for links
Just with those two, you basically need 2 more links in any "attack" skill you have and the like.
But then again, if you have a single attack skill, that means you just need a 3L and that's it right?
Well, if skill gems DPS scaled well relative to the levels you are in then it's true.
However I doubt you'll get anywhere with a single skill with no DPS enhancement (with support skills). If you don't die you'll waste like 10 minutes killing a single monster.
Thus, you need DPS enhancing support gems....and most of the time you need a lot of them
All of this bundled together basically means you need 5L-6L in the general cases.
Yes, if you are an awesome theory crafter and know the game inside out and are super expert and shit you can create a build that circumvents that and makes you faceroll the game easily (if also you can get the required gear).
That's only like 1% of the player base I'd assume though. Everybody else would " need" 5L-6L....at least if they want to progress "normally" through the game.
So yeah, balancing the game better and decreasing the "dependency" of 5L-6L would actually like 100% solve this problem (as long as 3L-4L are still relatively easy to obtain)
I still kind of like my suggestions, even if game is re-balanced or not.
inb4 "everybody that needs 5L-6L just sucks and should l2p"
+1, you are right.
The question is how to solve it. My first idea was when you get to certain level you have higher chance to roll 5L or 6L, and these new linked items can't be used by lower level char. For example after you achieve 60 level you get noticeably better chance to roll 5L, and level 70 the 6L. But it's just vague idea, i am sure people would find a way to exploit it very quickly.
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Posted byDeletedon Mar 21, 2013, 7:52:11 AM
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Stop crying guys,its ppl like u that ruin games...keep the game like it is now (challenging),dont make it another easy,shit game.
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Posted byehmtyppekhme#6370on Jul 10, 2013, 4:54:52 AM
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ehmtyppekhme wrote:
Stop crying guys,its ppl like u that ruin games...keep the game like it is now (challenging),dont make it another easy,shit game.
so, you resurrected my 3-month-old thread, just to say this?
how on Earth did you find it anyway?
and in case you are wondering, I haven't changed my mind about Fusing and Jewelling Orbs since.
no, this has nothing to do with game difficulty or challenge.
it's kind of like saying someone who won the Lottery with a lucky ticket, understands the Economy better than a guy who has been working his a** off for a living, and investing his savings.
and in case you failed to understand this simple metaphor, here's a more direct explanation:
I just hit a jackpot 6-link with one Fusing Orb, while you saved-up 200 of those - by farming for hundreds of hours - and wiped-out to a 0-link on your 200th attempt.
that surely means I'm better in this game than you, right?
sure I am. because I can go ahead and solo Piety on Merciless now, and you can't - because you can't use any support gems. including the ones you had previously equipped. gems, it literally took you months to obtain.
haha NOOB! you're not HARDCORE enough for this game!
/sarcasm off
Alva: I'm sweating like a hog in heat
Shadow: That was fun Last edited by johnKeys#6083 on Jul 10, 2013, 5:38:24 AM
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Posted byjohnKeys#6083on Jul 10, 2013, 5:23:13 AM
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As an academic in the field of software ergonomy I know one thing for sure:
It s all about avoiding moments of frustration ...
... unless they are needed to make achieving goals more enjoyable.
example:
A user is trying to kill a bandit - it didn´t work out, he is adapting his tactic or leveling up a few levels and finally beating the bandit = more enjoyable success then it would be without the moment of not beating the bandit challange in the first place. The right amount of difficulty/challange is literally like to salt the soup. It felts like progress even if the bandit wasn t killed at first try.
transfering this to the fusing/jeweller situation:
A user is applying 200 fusings and didn t get the 5 link gear to 6 links. (At this point it`s just annoying, but still provoking to collect even more fusings and carry on)
The moment of devestation comes when the situation is felt like beeing not able to make up for the loss.
The loss ist not the 200 blown fusings, the felt loss is the loss in power caused by not having at least 5 links anymore.
People dont wan`t to or simply don`t have the spare gear to save a 5 linked chest peace with similar mods. We want to "higher-link" our prefered gear.
possible solution:
a)
Links/sockets can only increase or stay on the same amount of links/sockets but never decrease.
b) or of conservation
create an orb wich is like an eternal orb for links/sockets.
conclusion:
I bet none of this suggetions are new, I like to point out expeacially the viability of
"b)". 5/6 linked items need to be rare so the goal of achieving it is very enjoyable.
But the rng of crafting must be reduced, cause this cause too much frustration.
The "orb of conservation" fulfils two roles: First he is another currency people will be motivated to farm and trade and stick to the game. Second it is the backup to avoid frustration. With the invention of the eternal orb GGG shows they have understood the importants of this backup mechanism. I am pritty sure this will be fixed soon.
If you like to increase the speed on it, feel free to spread the word or link this.
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Posted byjangolr#2248on Jul 10, 2013, 6:16:28 AMBanned
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