melee.. melee never changes

to clarify the 'near to bosses' point and maybe expand it a little:

Martyr Ghost. I'm sure youve met them. Ghost that makes all mobs insta-pop for sick fire damage. that one. all people playing melee (close ranged) have to deal with it and if you are not EXTREMELY tanky and vigilant at the same time - you cannot prepare for that bugger with levels of GFX diarrhoea current POE emits

Abaxoth. He is rare, he is cute and he definitely isnt the You Die from the past. but if you get the rare 'spawns beyond' boss blue pack in a bad map at a bad time You Die as a melee. tanking him in -max res map with +speed and +damage.. you can do it. but very little realistic builds can do it. ranged? just kite that bugger and wear him down. with melee you simply might not get any time-on-target with his constant spam of quite dangerous attacks

Any Boss with GFX vomit (including tanky legion/syndicate stuff) that covers ground effects you are supposed to avoid. ranged doesnt care. melee has to get close and actively look for such ground dangers. and if they pile up and you are in -regen map - life leech wont help you. you just have to a) ignore said target b) pray and wish for the best c) wait for target to move away from ground dangers (aka wasting time)


these alone would be enough to justify 'melee sux compared to ranged' but thats just tip of the iceberg


then there are post-death effects. porcupines killed from offscreen are not likely to hit you. porcupines killed at point blank - surely will hit you. and while evasion/blind/ar/whatever limits their damage - it STILL hurts and still is a strict melee downside.
same with delve icicles that explode for 10k raw. how is it fair that melee has to deal with that shit while ranged dont even know these exist?



then there is that rather funny assumption that ranged doesnt deal damage. i do not know where that came from but that is simply bollocks. bow builds can do endgame with Tempest, few abyss jewels, heralds and added XYZ damage support. thats enough. everything you get above that is just doing stuff better. paper dps is one thing. time on target, not wasting time for getting to mobs, 'solving' difficult encounters before they begin - all that is worth more than 100% more paper dps. there is a reason bows have great clear speeds and there is a reason most MF builds are ranged (not the suicidal 2k life ones, the solid ones). reason is - you dont have to invest much into damage.

"

And arguing that ranged can be just as tanky as melee is a pseudo argument, yes they can be but they actively hurt their gameplan by investing into defense unnecessarily. You lose damage by doing that which means you won't be able to clear fast enough which means you end up fighting face to face despite being a supposed ranged build.

that, precisely, is very very off the mark. i never had problems getting enough damage AND mitigation (not some inflated eHP epeen bollocks) with ranged builds. and in current game it is very very easy to stack enough cheap-wonders to be tanky.

any character can use chaos golem, 3 end charges, one of the guard skills and a defensive flask. on top of there is easily obtainable blind and numerous sources of both +max res AND phys damage taken as ele. then there are at least two outrageous Legion jewels that promote hybrid playstyle - these are absolutely busted and resident sleepers but you can get absurd tankines for pretty much nothing (available to all classes ofc). that is available to everyone and costs pretty much nothing. you can start from there. but that is what anyone can and SHOULD get. it is not melee only

after you pick your defences you go for malee or ranged, pick ascendancy (all of them have similar firepower: ~40% more damage and ~10% less damage taken. some have more defences (jugg), some have more utility (elementalist), some are stupid (necro) and some are more offensively oriented (zerk) - but the general ascendancy design is rather predictible). not a single ascendancy is 'melee'. not.a.single.one.

oh btw - ranger and assassin make good melee chars (if melee can be good) because they provide speed, offence and some defence and melee needs speed to move from pack to pack (that ranged requires not) and to run away from danger it cannot tank (and there is plenty of these you simply cannot)

Melee is not tanky just for being melee.

Fortify, fucking 9 endurance charges, monsters cursed with enfeeble, vaal molten shell, jugg defensive passives, lots of life regen, overcapped resistances, tons of armour, take no extra damage from criticals, even that is not enough; yesterday I died to a T 13 rare map with only one damage mod: % damage as extra cold. A pack of ranged beyond mobs ripped me so hard I couldn't react.

This game unfortunatelly is not made for tank builds. If you are trying to tank things you are just handcapping yourself. In PoE you are more successfull if you kill things before they touch you than being able to survive everything.

Take delve for example. You don't need life/defenses AT ALL. Go full damage and you can go 6k, 20k deep.

Take Uber Elder: if you insta-phase the boss you don't need to worry about being hit. Go full damage and you can ignore all the danger.

For melee to be in par with ranged it needs a lot of improvements, a full rework from bottom up, not some skills or gear.

It's possible to melee? Yes. It's fun? I think so, I make melee exiles every league. It's balanced? No. Can it compete with ranged? Never.

"

sidtherat wrote:

Martyr Ghost. I'm sure youve met them. Ghost that makes all mobs insta-pop for sick fire damage. that one. all people playing melee (close ranged) have to deal with it and if you are not EXTREMELY tanky and vigilant at the same time - you cannot prepare for that bugger with levels of GFX diarrhoea current POE emits

Never really noticed those to be honest, i will keep an eye out for them.

"

sidtherat wrote:

Abaxoth. He is rare, he is cute and he definitely isnt the You Die from the past. but if you get the rare 'spawns beyond' boss blue pack in a bad map at a bad time You Die as a melee. tanking him in -max res map with +speed and +damage.. you can do it. but very little realistic builds can do it. ranged? just kite that bugger and wear him down. with melee you simply might not get any time-on-target with his constant spam of quite dangerous attacks

Depending on the amount of damage nodes on the map i can actually tank that guy. At least long enough to kill him. But even if not, that guy is so freakingly rare (met him like 3 times in my 1 year of playing) that it looks like your grasping straws here just to somehow try and prove your point.

"

sidtherat wrote:

Any Boss with GFX vomit (including tanky legion/syndicate stuff) that covers ground effects you are supposed to avoid. ranged doesnt care. melee has to get close and actively look for such ground dangers. and if they pile up and you are in -regen map - life leech wont help you. you just have to a) ignore said target b) pray and wish for the best c) wait for target to move away from ground dangers (aka wasting time)

The only ground degen i had to care about so far are the ones from shaper/uber elder. Everything else can be ignored from my experience.

"

sidtherat wrote:

these alone would be enough to justify 'melee sux compared to ranged' but thats just tip of the iceberg

1 monster i never heard about, one that's rarer than exalts and some nameless stuff you don't even know what it is and that's supposed to be enough of an argument? Well, not in my book. I'd call that grasping straws.

"

sidtherat wrote:

then there are post-death effects. porcupines killed from offscreen are not likely to hit you. porcupines killed at point blank - surely will hit you. and while evasion/blind/ar/whatever limits their damage - it STILL hurts and still is a strict melee downside.
same with delve icicles that explode for 10k raw. how is it fair that melee has to deal with that shit while ranged dont even know these exist?

Funny you bring those up. There was a whine topic about porcupines a few months ago where some ranged player was whining because he got killed by them all the time. After seeing that topic i had to Google what porcupines are because i never even noticed them.
Similar thing with those icicles. I believe the first time i actually noticed them was when i used my SST Berserker for deep delves. Never even noticed them using Chieftain/Juggernaut due to low damage and movement speed protection.

"

sidtherat wrote:

then there is that rather funny assumption that ranged doesnt deal damage. i do not know where that came from but that is simply bollocks. bow builds can do endgame with Tempest, few abyss jewels, heralds and added XYZ damage support. thats enough. everything you get above that is just doing stuff better. paper dps is one thing. time on target, not wasting time for getting to mobs, 'solving' difficult encounters before they begin - all that is worth more than 100% more paper dps. there is a reason bows have great clear speeds and there is a reason most MF builds are ranged (not the suicidal 2k life ones, the solid ones). reason is - you dont have to invest much into damage.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that range deals no damage. I said that melee has higher damage uptime in bossfights. 2 entirely different statements

"

sidtherat wrote:

that, precisely, is very very off the mark. i never had problems getting enough damage AND mitigation (not some inflated eHP epeen bollocks) with ranged builds. and in current game it is very very easy to stack enough cheap-wonders to be tanky.

any character can use chaos golem, 3 end charges, one of the guard skills and a defensive flask. on top of there is easily obtainable blind and numerous sources of both +max res AND phys damage taken as ele. then there are at least two outrageous Legion jewels that promote hybrid playstyle - these are absolutely busted and resident sleepers but you can get absurd tankines for pretty much nothing (available to all classes ofc). that is available to everyone and costs pretty much nothing. you can start from there. but that is what anyone can and SHOULD get. it is not melee only

after you pick your defences you go for malee or ranged, pick ascendancy (all of them have similar firepower: ~40% more damage and ~10% less damage taken. some have more defences (jugg), some have more utility (elementalist), some are stupid (necro) and some are more offensively oriented (zerk) - but the general ascendancy design is rather predictible). not a single ascendancy is 'melee'. not.a.single.one.

oh btw - ranger and assassin make good melee chars (if melee can be good) because they provide speed, offence and some defence and melee needs speed to move from pack to pack (that ranged requires not) and to run away from danger it cannot tank (and there is plenty of these you simply cannot)

I guess the fact that you think you're tanky from using 3 endurance charges, a guard skill and a Golem along with some flasks shows why you think melee has to worry about porkupines and consorts and needs to move in boss fights.
You just never played a tanky character. Thinking that Ranger and Assassin are good melees goes into the same direction. They aren't, simply because their defenses can't keep up at higher levels. My Assasssin has 6k life instant leech and 600k dps along with 3 end charges, steelskin and 3 defensive flasks and he still dies like a fly. Not good melee material, at least not in my book.

If you insist that all ascendancies are equally good for both ranged and melee then think what you want, i am too tired of arguing on that.

what part of 'you start from there' you missed? that is the bare minimum any character can get and - funny enough - most ranged players dont even bother with. and yet another fun fact - they dont need to bother

ive checked your characters and nothing there you use - except for that lvl95 tanky jugg - is inherently melee in any shape or form

Loreweave + Dying Sun + resist flask - this is universal, my archers use the same exact setup
Dual Nebuloh can be used with spells as well - this is universal albeit you miss on damage. it might be worth it still
Jugg - is universal. if someone wants overkill defenses, jugg summoner or caster is a thing
Belly of the Beast - universal (i think worse than 150/10% life temple chest in some cases)

What else is there? What is melee only? Fortify? ofc it isnt. you dont need it for clear and you get it for one use of movement skill. yes, it is ONE EXTRA MOVEMENT but.. that is a price significant % of playerbase deems worth it and better than playing melee in the first place


you claiming melee is fine while using jugg 2*nebuloh moltenstrike LGOH as an example.. is misleading. take a step back and tell me what else is there melee can use, that bow user cannot. because bow users can use range, can use the same (with some very limited exceptions) defensive mechanic, can afford to pay for them. melee does not have these options. there is not a single thing melee does better - again, tankiness is NOT BUILT IN into melee in any way shape or form


my Tornado Shot Phys Crit Slayer works perfectly with end charges==frenzy charges node and the rest. ranged. using 'melee' ascendancy. 8 end charges, Loreweave, Dying Sun, Chaos Golem, enfeeble, blind. with obscene dps and an OPTION to not ever see a mob if i decide to.


oh and Delve Icicles are things you just dont tank. i ofc have 2*neb jugg, everyone that plays long enough has one. it is cool slow clearer. but if you think you can tank these in 400+ -max delve you simply never did that. and good luck spotting them - bright on bright, small. great UX

"

sidtherat wrote:

oh and Delve Icicles are things you just dont tank. i ofc have 2*neb jugg, everyone that plays long enough has one. it is cool slow clearer. but if you think you can tank these in 400+ -max delve you simply never did that. and good luck spotting them - bright on bright, small. great UX

I know i can take them without even noticing in 300 Depth delves, no matter the mods. I am well aware that at some point in Delve i will no longer be able to, might be 400, might be 500 i don't know, doesn't matter anyway. With infinite damage skaling in Delve it's obvious that melee builds will reach a point where they can no longer do it. Going pure glass cannon is the only option at some point.

The rest of your post i am not going to address, i've addressed all your points several times already, you just seem to overlook that every time so i'll stop wasting my time here. You're obviously not going to change your position and nothing you've posted so far was in the least bit convincing for me so i won't change mine. Agree to disagree is the only thing left.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

And you don't need to play a melee character to be a zerk ....
Same for champion, juggs, guardians, tricksters etc ...
These ascendancy are not melee-only ascendancies, at all, so it's quite irrelevant really.

Sure, theoretically you can make Summoner Juggernauts and dual Nebuloch TecSlam Hierophants but I think we can all agree that stuff like this isn't very viable?

You barely find Duelists/Marauders using spells, RF Jugg is like the only viable option I can think of. Some Duelist builds might use bows to be hipster but that's most likely worse than just making a melee.

Are you for real ????

Let's take your original statemeny and explicity show how silly and disingenuous it is then, wtf.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

- there is nothing 'melee' does better than bow and casters. 'tanky' doesnt count as nothing in melee makes you inherently tanky. while you HAVE to be tanky to play melee in the first place.

The Ascendancies do. Berserker aside the other 5 melee ascendancies provide far more defensive utility than any other ascendancy. Slayer leech, Champions Fortify, Gladiators Block and Spellblock and Chieftain/Juggernauts Endurance Charges, flat Damage reduction and life regen. What do other ascendancies have? Guardian can reach high ES jevels and Trickster has Ghost Shrouds but the rest?

There it is, the absolutely ridiculous claim that :
- Berserker
- Slayer
- Champion
- Gladiator
- Chieftain
- Juggernaut
are melee ascendancies.

Let's take the top 10 poe.ninja Blight HC ladder and see what we have :

7 bow builds
1 totem build ( AW )
1 minion build ( zombies )
1 cyclone build
-> 1 'melee' build
-> 0 strike skill based build


4 BV builds
1 Zombie build
1 Fireball build
1 Unknown build based on Scold's Bridle
1 Infernal blow build
1 Totem ( AW ) build
1 Cyclone build ( CoC btw )
-> 2 'melee' build
-> 1 strike skill based build


4 Lacerate builds
1 Seems to be VMS
1 Blade flurry build
3 Cyclone build
1 Earthquake build
-> 9 'melee' build
-> 0 strike skill based build


7 Cyclone build
1 Spectre build
1 Infernal blow build
1 HoA ( storm brand proc ) build
-> 8 'melee' build
-> 1 strike skill build



6 Cyclone build ( some CoC btw )
2 Frost blade build
1 perforate build

And I missed the screenshot and only took 9 of them, a pity since the 10th one is a scourge arrow build
-> 9 'melee' build
-> 2 strike skill based build


1 Elemental hit build ( bow, the #1 )
4 Cyclone build
1 Blade flurry build
1 Eartquake build
1 Spectral shield throw build
1 Scourge arrow build
1 Frost blade build
-> 7 'melee' build
-> 1 strike skill based build


Overal, if we sum it up :
-> 36 'melee' builds, mostly cyclone ( lulz, and some with CoC, some with HoA )
-> 5 strike skill based builds, less than one per class, yep, that's how good strike skills are.

So much failure here, so much for those 'melee' ascendancies.
Also BIG JOKE @"Summoner Juggernaut isn't viable" as we can see, there is one top ladder guy who did just that.


Now that it's quite obvious that you are talking about things that you just don't know, let's resume ...

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

His claim was that slow Maces/Axes are "NEVER" used

You think so because you just cannot read/understand the context, as I pointed out already.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

Arguing that melee loses time for reposition while ranged has more damage uptime is turning reality upside down. Ranged chars are the ones that have to keep moving all the time

??????
Have you ever played melee in this game AT ALL ???

Holy crap, range characters are the one who have positioning very easy and spend most of their time actually dealing damage, not melee characters.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

It is as far as I am concerned, I've already explained why. Yes, in theory you can make a ranged Caster Juggernaut with Forty and ES leech but a build like that simply makes no sense what so ever. If you want to play ranged it makes no sense to put fortify anywhere as that requires you to get close. Not to mention that there is very little benefit to using melee ascendancies for ranged builds to benefit from their tankyness because they have little to nothing else to offer for such a build. Leech is also something you lack as a caster except your full ES and can utilize ES leech.

I pretty much adressed all that nonsense you've been throwing, right above.

And .... leech, something that you lack as a caster ? WUT ?
Are you aware that GGG added ES LEECH gems and nodes on the tree ?
Are you aware that jewellery that provides element-based leech is not hard to find ?
What the hell are you talking about ? HAve you played the game at all in 2019 ?

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

Never really noticed those to be honest, i will keep an eye out for them.

Because you lack experience with melee characters, it's as simple as that.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

Funny you bring those up. There was a whine topic about porcupines a few months ago where some ranged player was whining because he got killed by them all the time. After seeing that topic i had to Google what porcupines are because i never even noticed them.
Similar thing with those icicles. I believe the first time i actually noticed them was when i used my SST Berserker for deep delves. Never even noticed them using Chieftain/Juggernaut due to low damage and movement speed protection.

?
Never noticed porcupines, and never noticed the delve on death effects before deep delves ???
The ONLY, the ONLY REASON to not notice those on-death effect are corpse disposal, there is no other fucking way to be that unaware otherwise ( unless bad faith, I guess that's very much a possibility ).

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

Now you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that range deals no damage. I said that melee has higher damage uptime in bossfights. 2 entirely different statements

Both statement being blatantly wrong, it does not matter.



I guess it's what Sid just pointed out, you have one double Nebuloch Jugg and are completely oblivious as what melee characters are in this game apart from it.

Just once it would be nice to have one of these threads where people actually show up with coherent counterarguments, instead of the same old circular nonsense that boils down to "I choose to build melee tankier than ranged, therefore all melee is tankier than ranged."

"

ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

Just once it would be nice to have one of these threads where people actually show up with coherent counterarguments, instead of the same old circular nonsense that boils down to "I choose to build melee tankier than ranged, therefore all melee is tankier than ranged."

NOOO ! MELEE IS FINE BECAUSE JUGG !!!!





wait ....


On a side note, I'm wondering why RF Jugg isn't popular anymore, fire dot got quite buffed this year too.

"

Fruz wrote:

pretty long rage post

Honestly all you're doing is making claims without any arguments to back them up along with some insults here and there, not to mention that your willingness (ability?) to read is pretty low. You truly aren't worth bothering with.

"

Baharoth15 wrote:

"

Fruz wrote:

pretty long rage post

Honestly all you're doing is making claims without any arguments to back them up along with some insults here and there, not to mention that your willingness (ability?) to read is pretty low. You truly aren't worth bothering with.

So, me adressing the nonsense you were trying to spread by actual facts with actual evidence <=> "claims without any arguments" to you ?


lulz, GOTCHA.
This was meant to happen at some point.