melee.. melee never changes
" Sure, theoretically you can make Summoner Juggernauts and dual Nebuloch TecSlam Hierophants but I think we can all agree that stuff like this isn't very viable? You barely find Duelists/Marauders using spells, RF Jugg is like the only viable option I can think of. Some Duelist builds might use bows to be hipster but that's most likely worse than just making a melee. " His claim was that slow Maces/Axes are "NEVER" used. And no Nebulochs main sellingpoint is not damage, obviously not. It's not all about DPS in this game. He is kinda missing this fact in his arguments. " Sorry but with that you've totally disqualified yourself from discussion as far as I am concerned. Arguing that melee loses time for reposition while ranged has more damage uptime is turning reality upside down. Ranged chars are the ones that have to keep moving all the time. Go an make a youtube vid where you fight shaper with a ranged character from a distance without moving. Shouldn't last long. The melee on the other hand can just facetank as he doesn't have to worry about Balls. Only the occasional beam which requires like 1 second to dodge. Damage uptime for melee is MUCH higher than ranged because they are designed to tank. If your melee build has to move for anything but the most dangerous burst attacks the endgame has to offer then you've build him wrong. Same for the offscreen t16 with 200k dps statement. My raider has close to 200k dps with ice shot and he isn't offscreening jack shit in T16, I have to go down to tier 10 or below to do that. Last edited by Baharoth15#0429 on Nov 28, 2019, 5:07:45 AM
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" The problem is that you're assuming melee is intrinsically tankier than ranged. IT ISN'T. You can build any ranged build exactly as tanky as any melee build, because "being melee" doesn't offer any substantive defensive boosts, and in many ways actually makes you defensively weaker. That's the entire crux of the original argument, and it's the point that you and Torstein seem determined to continue missing. So here's an example: the tankiest build I have ever SEEN, not just the tankiest I've ever made, was my SST Zerker from Legion league. I could literally eat any single hit in the entire game, including BOTH HITS of the Uber Atziri Mega-Venn-Diagram-Flameblast. Nothing about choosing a ranged ability made me any weaker defensively than if I'd made the same exact character as frost blades or sunder or ground slam or double strike. There was ZERO defensive downside, and a ton of offensive upsides. THAT is the problem. |
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" " I don't even... where is that grand design? I want to see the blueprints in case they actually did try and it just didn't turn out well. Where's the manifesto that says a character using heavy strike should be tougher than one using blade flurry, spectral throw or whatever. Look, I don't like ranged builds much myself, they're boring and I don't play them as well, just don't have the mindset. However, that doesn't mean I'm wearing melee goggles. Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.
◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]► ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]► |
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" It is as far as I am concerned, I've already explained why. Yes, in theory you can make a ranged Caster Juggernaut with Forty and ES leech but a build like that simply makes no sense what so ever. If you want to play ranged it makes no sense to put fortify anywhere as that requires you to get close. Not to mention that there is very little benefit to using melee ascendancies for ranged builds to benefit from their tankyness because they have little to nothing else to offer for such a build. Leech is also something you lack as a caster except your full ES and can utilize ES leech. As far as your Captain America build is concerned, I've build a version of that myself to see how it goes, certainly not as good as the original but I believe it's good enough to give me an idea. And honestly, if that's your definition of tanky then i'd highly encourage you to look at my Jugg or my Chieftain. Yes, your Berserker can tank any single hit, while the defensive flasks, VMS/MS and or Berserk are active. Once they are on CD that's it with your tankyness. Your entirely relying on temporary buffs to tank. My Jugg/Chieftain can tank Shaperslams without even using a flask. And they have similar/higher powered VMS on top if need be. Your build is decently tanky, but if you think that's the end of the line then you're wrong, sorry. " I don't know if that was designed or not, there is no manifesto about it. But if you look at the facts, like the strong defensive buffs on melee ascendancies, fortify support getting buffed and life/mana leech being made unique to melee then I think there might be a plan behind that. But even if its not, fact is tanking is much easier with a decent melee build than with a ranged build. Maybe some ranged builds can reach similar or even higher levels but most of them don't and the ones that do require much more dedication and specialized gear to get there. Last edited by Baharoth15#0429 on Nov 28, 2019, 6:14:10 AM
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" Well that's exactly it, they aren't 'melee' ascendancies, meaning that they reward you for sniffing monster butts point blank. You can stand wherever you like, hell, champion can make a pretty good summoner. There are just very few mechanics in this game that depend on how close your skill of choice forces you to be to the target. Imagine if only strike skills could stun, imagine if the only way to earn a 1s fortify was on hit with a melee skill within a 15 unit distance, now that's the blueprint with an obvious intent to reward you for standing close to enemies a lot. Instead of having fifty shades of ways to earn fortify, of which half are available to everyone and his spectral monkey. Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs. ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]► ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]► Last edited by raics#7540 on Nov 28, 2019, 6:35:39 AM
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" And what reason would anyone have to play a Champion summoner over a Necromancer/Guardian version? Use taunt to pull aggro towards himself and protect his minions? Honestly, you guys bash on melee because it can't match ranged in terms of clearspeed (which it can't) and then you go and argue for Champion Summoners? Using opportunity cost as an argument for your point and then ignoring it on the next sentence because it suits you? Kinda opportunistic don't you think? I don't call them melee ascendancies because they require you to be close the the target, I call them so because they give you the tools to go close to the enemy. Try making a melee build based on Raider or Assassin and then make the same build using a real melee class. There are miles between them. Yes, you can also use them to make a ranged build, but what's the point of doing that when most of their bonuses are to make you tankier? Something you don't have to be if your plan is to just offscreen everything anyway? Wouldn't it be better to just focus on damage in this case? Just because something is possible in theory doesn't mean it's beneficial to do it. It's the same thing as with fortify. Yes, you can slam fortify support on your shield charge and bash right into mobs to get fortify. But why the hell would you do that using a ranged build if you can just offscreen the shit? It just doesn't make sense. Last edited by Baharoth15#0429 on Nov 28, 2019, 7:22:34 AM
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I fully support this OP <3. Melee must become something precious to be played and worth in end game.
GGG thank you for all the great things you are doing. You have combined every element of all other great Rpg's and joined them together as one Diamond, that will shine Forever.
This is coming straight from the heart <3 |
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" See? You're actually agreeing with sid and me here, you're investing that effort with melee because it's absolutely necessary for the whole thing to work as a concept, a ranged build might do it or it might not, their choice. And you did very well to notice why they don't, they don't have to bother, their concept works out of the box. The main goal of the game is higher clear speed, by pursuing that they get 1) enough dps to kill things before they can get to kill them and 2) mobility to dodge stuff better if they have to. Building melee goes against the core goal of the game, in a sense, so as the game gets faster it needs to be actively compensated to stay competitive, not catch a stray 6% glacial hammer damage buff or two. You can taunt with totems as a champ, by the way, no need to put yourself in danger, you probably won't be better than real summoners now that they got buffed for no reason, but it works. Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.
◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]► ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]► |
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" I am not arguing that melee is better/faster than ranged, it's not and unless Monster HP get a massive buff or player dps a massive nerf that's not going to change. But that doesn't change the fact that the points from Sid that I've quoted on the last page aren't correct. His judgement might by right but the arguments presented aren't for the most part. If you say ranged has better clearspeed than melee, I agree. If you say ranged is more efficient to play because of that, I agree. If you say that strikeskills (except for Moltenstrike and Frostblades maybe) are complete jackshit, I agree. But claiming that melee has to move more in bossfights than ranged is ridiculous. Same for the statement that bosses are designed to punish melee, the opposite is the case. And arguing that ranged can be just as tanky as melee is a pseudo argument, yes they can be but they actively hurt their gameplan by investing into defense unnecessarily. You lose damage by doing that which means you won't be able to clear fast enough which means you end up fighting face to face despite being a supposed ranged build. Last edited by Baharoth15#0429 on Nov 28, 2019, 8:58:31 AM
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" Sure, I'd agree it isn't a rule, boss fights are a mixed bag and some do favor standing at point blank. Wish it was a factor more often, though, wish more of the bosses lived long enough to show you their skills, wish they had the drops that are worth the time you'd invest in fighting them instead of just loading another map... But yeah, this whole thing is wishful thinking, a bunch of beardos discussing game design. On that note, this new league could actually be something more melee friendly than the last two with its boss rush design. Inb4 most bosses have some kind of damage aura up close or an instakill shotgun move. Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs. ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]► ◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]► Last edited by raics#7540 on Nov 28, 2019, 9:28:19 AM
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