Challenger Charge are worse than Tailwind (Gathering Winds)

"

JeckNoTree wrote:

[...][...]
Effects:
2% more Attack and Movement Speed per Challenger Charge
+1% aditional physical Damage reduction per Challenger Charge
+1% Chance to Evade Attacks per Challenger Charge
+1% Chance to Block Attack Damage per Challenger Charge

You don't quite grasp the impact on your suggestion on balance, this would be utterly broken.


Plus :
- Ascendancy classes balance is not about one keystone compared to another, it's about one whole ascendancy compared to another
- Keeping max tailwind stacks isn't as easy as you think usually

"

JeckNoTree wrote:

If less then 1% of Players in the blight league and less then 5% in Hardcoreblight are playing Gladiator there must be something wrong.

And how many players are playing Deadeye ? ( class that you are using as a justification of why glad needs a buff ).

"

JeckNoTree wrote:

3.7 Patch Changes
(Now deals base damage equal to, and has an added damage effectiveness of, 135% at gem level 1 (from 100%), up to 155% at gem level 20 (from 138%).
The base skill radius is now 2 units larger.
Now gains up to +2 radius at gem level 20 (from +4).
Now loses stages incrementally after a short period without hitting anything, rather than all at once.
)

this is what I meant.

Those are stages, from one skill ( that do not stack with other skills ), not shared with anything else.

"

JeckNoTree wrote:

Effect Buffs:
1% more Attack and Movement Speed per Challenger Charge

while in Bloodstance Adds 2 to 4 Physical Damage to Attacks per 5 Player Levels (=lvl100 = 40 to 80 added Physical damage)
(same as the Champion (buy only works in bloodstance))

while in Sandstance Adds 100 Armour and 100 Evasionrating per 5 Player Levels (=lvl100 = 2000 Armour 2000 Evasionrating)
(at lvl 100 comeone this is not mutch)
(good for leveling)

2 Point (King of the Arena(Daresso)):
+5 to maximum Challenger Charges

hitting Enemys per Challenger Charge have a 2% Chance to gain Frenzy and Endurance Charges on Hit (removing Outmatch and Outlast)
5% more Damage while at maximum Frenzy Charges
5% reduced Damage taken on hit while at maximum Endurance Charges
(Charge, Charge Generation)

3 Point (Grandmaster of the Arena)
+5 to maximum Challenger Charges

1% reduced Damage taken from hits per Challenger Charge (this is less then Fortify (total of 15 Charges))
+1% Chance to Block Attack Damage per Challenger Charge (Connecting it with Versatile Combatant and removing Violent Retaliation)(only 15%Block Chance)
(more charges bigger buff)

Aaaannd this would be even more utterly broken, very very blatantly.
120-240 added flat phys dmg ? wut ?
on top of :
- 15% dmg reduction from hit ( most broken defensive thing of the whole game )
- free frenzy and endurance charges, with an extra 5% more dmg and 5% dmg reduction from hits
- 15% block chance


No, seriously.

"

Fruz wrote:

No, seriously.

He's still inexperienced and it shows. Let's try and keep it friendly here. Took me a while to understand that. :)

"

He's still inexperienced and it shows. Let's try and keep it friendly here. Took me a while to understand that. :)

Thank You I'll try my best, and just think About new ways to Change something.

"

My only issue with the charges is that they rely on sand stance to proc while killing mobs, which means you’ve got to use an AoE skill or a pure phys setup in order to benefit from Blood & Sand or Flesh & Stone. Elemental strike skills (wild strike, static strike, frost blades, etc) are tough to optimize.

A minor quibble, I know, but a quibble nonetheless.

this is something interesting.

"

You don't quite grasp the impact on your suggestion on balance, this would be utterly broken.

maby

"

- Keeping max tailwind stacks isn't as easy as you think usually

please look at the wiki:
https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Gathering_Winds

it is much easier than gaining Challenger Charges

Tailwind Aquirition:
Gain: If you've used a Skill Recently, you and nearby Allies have Tailwind.
Stacks: 10% increased Effect of Tailwind on you for each Skill you've used Recently (refers to the past 4 seconds)

"

"

"JeckNoTree wrote:
If less then 1% of Players in the blight league and less then 5% in Hardcoreblight are playing Gladiator there must be something wrong.

And how many players are playing Deadeye ? ( class that you are using as a justification of why glad needs a buff ).

what would you say, this is a comparison.

"

Those are stages, from one skill ( that do not stack with other skills ), not shared with anything else.

This is an Explanation for the guy who said, to lose stacks per second is impossible, this should be the same Prinzip.

"

Aaaannd this would be even more utterly broken, very very blatantly.
120-240 added flat phys dmg ? wut ?

No, look at the Champion node Master of Metal (You and nearby Allies deal 6 to 12 added Physical Damage for each impale on Enemy (5 by standart +2 from "Master of Metal"7 7*6=42 to 12*7=84 (conclusion Champion deal with only 1 node 42 to 84 added flat physical Damage(means you get this Damage from the beginning of Level ~30))))
and 120-240 added flat physical Damage is at Level 100
at Level ~30 you would only get 12 to 24 added Flat physical Damage, think of this.

"

15% dmg reduction from hit ( most broken defensive thing of the whole game )

what would be better?

"

free frenzy and endurance charges, with an extra 5% more dmg and 5% dmg reduction from hits

this is less then the Actual "Outmatch and Outlast"
wiki: https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Outmatch_and_Outlast

Funktion:
25% chance to gain a Frenzy Charge on Kill with Main Hand
25% chance to gain an Endurance Charge on Kill with Off Hand
10% more Physical Damage while at maximum Frenzy Charges
10% reduced Physical Damage taken while at maximum Endurance Charges

"

on top of :
- 15% block Chance

this is good, because this would work perfectly sense with the Ascendancy because the Gladiator is About to be a block character
and if Violent Retaliation
(wiki: https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Violent_Retaliation ) is removed this would make more sense, because getting blockchance when you have high/maxed out blobkchance is not as effective as getting blockchance if you have a low blockchance and gaining in within the fight.

all those ideas are for playing in hardcore mode, as it is relatively unimportant in softcore not to be defeated. It is usually only on sided that the offensive side of the characters is changed to make them even faster (I dont have a Problem with that), currently there are two types in poe to stay alive, either one zooms through the enemys before they can even do something or you have a bunch of live and energy Shield (max res standard).

This is just a problem of hardcore players and these changes would not change the behaviour of the most softcore players as they usually only hopefully do not insist on one's shots anyway.

If you look closely, you'll see that these changes are mainly for defensive bonuses.

thankyou humans

"

JeckNoTree wrote:

"

My only issue with the charges is that they rely on sand stance to proc while killing mobs, which means you’ve got to use an AoE skill or a pure phys setup in order to benefit from Blood & Sand or Flesh & Stone. Elemental strike skills (wild strike, static strike, frost blades, etc) are tough to optimize.

A minor quibble, I know, but a quibble nonetheless.

this is something interesting.

I do try to be :)

But I think it is restricting Gladiator’s melee skill choices, which feels odd and unintended. Simplest fix is to add a new “stance” skill that benefits strike skills in some way. More attack damage in blood stance, more secondary effect damage (or perhaps built in splash) in sand stance. Strike skills need the help anyway!

"

demon9675 wrote:

"

JeckNoTree wrote:

"

My only issue with the charges is that they rely on sand stance to proc while killing mobs, which means you’ve got to use an AoE skill or a pure phys setup in order to benefit from Blood & Sand or Flesh & Stone. Elemental strike skills (wild strike, static strike, frost blades, etc) are tough to optimize.

A minor quibble, I know, but a quibble nonetheless.

this is something interesting.

I do try to be :)

But I think it is restricting Gladiator’s melee skill choices, which feels odd and unintended. Simplest fix is to add a new “stance” skill that benefits strike skills in some way. More attack damage in blood stance, more secondary effect damage (or perhaps built in splash) in sand stance. Strike skills need the help anyway!

It's the same logical flaw they used to give saboteur "elemental damage" on his smaller ascendancy nodes instead of "trap and mine % damage" when it was first released.

Fully ignoring the fact you can trap and mine physical spells and even attacks.

It's so obvious of an oversight that it puzzles me why it took so many iterations to change it to the current trap and mine bonus.

Let's hope they change these charges to effect all forms of attack in the near future so you don't feel like your sacrificing something for no additional gain.(within the context of blood/sand stance being inherently favorable to physical attack types)

Peace,

-Boem-

"

JeckNoTree wrote:

"

You don't quite grasp the impact on your suggestion on balance, this would be utterly broken.

maby

"

- Keeping max tailwind stacks isn't as easy as you think usually

please look at the wiki:
https://pathofexile.gamepedia.com/Gathering_Winds

it is much easier than gaining Challenger Charges

Tailwind Aquirition:
Gain: If you've used a Skill Recently, you and nearby Allies have Tailwind.
Stacks: 10% increased Effect of Tailwind on you for each Skill you've used Recently (refers to the past 4 seconds)

That's because you don't understand how tailwind works, which is probably why you don't understand the difference between 'charges' and 'stacks' of something in PoE.

"

JeckNoTree wrote:

what would you say, this is a comparison.

Quite a bad comparison, which is exactly what I'm pointing out.

"

JeckNoTree wrote:

No, look at the Champion node Master of Metal (You and nearby Allies deal 6 to 12 added Physical Damage for each impale on Enemy (5 by standart +2 from "Master of Metal"7 7*6=42 to 12*7=84 (conclusion Champion deal with only 1 node 42 to 84 added flat physical Damage(means you get this Damage from the beginning of Level ~30))))
and 120-240 added flat physical Damage is at Level 100
at Level ~30 you would only get 12 to 24 added Flat physical Damage, think of this.

Nobody cares about level 30, it's completely irrelevant.

Regarding impale it's not something that you have from the first hit, with challenger charges once you have the charges you are at full power, against anything.

"

JeckNoTree wrote:

what would be better?

Nothing, there is no need to change anything, the current keystone is better than what you are proposing, as it is much more inline balance-wise with most other ascendancy keystones.

"

JeckNoTree wrote:

this would make more sense, because getting blockchance when you have high/maxed out blobkchance is not as effective as getting blockchance if you have a low blockchance and gaining in within the fight.

???
No,
Not at all.
The more block chance you have, the stronger the next block chance points get.
Going from 10 to 15% block chance isn't a big deal.
Going from 70 to 75% block chance IS a big deal.

Basic maths here, really.

"

That's because you don't understand how tailwind works, which is probably why you don't understand the difference between 'charges' and 'stacks' of something in PoE.

If you are the one who uses channeling skills, this would be a problem for you. I think I understand how these skills work. On the other hand, you only want to prove your point by saying something completely irrelevant.
bps: to acquire tailwind is by just Pressing a button. that's it.
whatever you are Talking About Fruz I dont understand your Problem, I

I think you did not even read the wiki… im sorry for you but at this Point I couldn't help u anymore.

"

Quite a bad comparison, which is exactly what I'm pointing out.

ok, so if it is a bad comparison say what would be better, even this sentence does not said anything…
Your not helping anyone Right now.

"

Nobody cares about level 30, it's completely irrelevant.

Regarding impale it's not something that you have from the first hit, with challenger charges once you have the charges you are at full power, against anything.

see you dont have all impalestacks from the first hit, either you also dont have all challengercharges from the first hit.
Challenger Charges are a Buff for your Character and Impale is a debuff for an enemy, this is a difference.

and your also "are at full power, against anything." with the Champion, so what your Point.

"

Nothing, there is no need to change anything, the current keystone is better than what you are proposing, as it is much more inline balance-wise with most other ascendancy keystones.

That's the point, what I say. ALL Classes Need more defense, this would have an impact of about ~0% on softcore players, but would bring a huge advantage to the HC players.

If you say Classes don't Need Changes the game would stagnate.

"

???
No,
Not at all.
The more block chance you have, the stronger the next block chance points get.
Going from 10 to 15% block chance isn't a big deal.
Going from 70 to 75% block chance IS a big deal.

Basic maths here, really.

your Right math is important, but if you whitng About this way
going from

1. 40% to 55% Blockchance makes a huge difference
2. and going from 60% to 75% would not Change that mutch.

1. from less than 1/3 is going up to around 1/2 of the Chance to block
2. getting from 2/3 to 3/4 isn't that a drastic Change because before the character has a high Chance to block.