Make the endgame higher maps viable for "normal" solo characters

Or make the game an MMO and let it be clearly known that certain challenges, like the endgame, are suited for full parties.

No, I am not talking about monsters being too strong. I am talking about the RNG being the real boss that you never see and never get to fight and conquer. RNG "crafting", RNG drops, RNG maps, RNG layers over RNG layers.

I am talking about the endgame costing tons of currency a normal, solo character has no means of acquiring. Once, you could gimp your char of essential stats and put IIQ/IIR then run lower level content for useful currency - but not any more.

I am talking about being forcefully relegated to content that has no meaning to you any longer, at 1% XP/map.

I am taking about spending days and maybe weeks without finding a SINGLE useful gear upgrade - and I have crappy gear, compared to what I see on the forums.

I am talking about "crafting" that can actually break your gear, instead of improving it.

Not only solo chars have it harder with the content, without the safety of a faceroll party, but they get less loot and no reward for their greater risks.

So my humble suggestion is:

Please make the higher level content (70+) viable for normal, solo characters. Remove the layered "you have to grind to be able to grind" craziness. You lack content, OK, just say it: "WE LACK CONTENT" - we understand, you're a small team, we'll wait. But don't play with us with this lame approach where you basically make content cost useful crafting currency, and as rare as powerful gear. You don't fool anybody, maps are still the same old content we already seen, at a higher level, they hardly deserve the RNG rarity they enjoy now.

And if you make the end-game content itemised, don't leave it a slave to the RNG completely. RNG is fun, to be clear, but put some limitations on it. People already work and grind through the maps, don't make them grind to be able to grind in maps.

And to add to the insult, the RNG is so bad, that even the people that basically did ANYTHING (including multiboxing, each of the 6 components of a party with their dummy accounts), and are very experienced in PoE, still just drag through much lower level content than what would be reasonable.

If they have issues, in such conditions, with extensive dummy farming and experienced veteran parties - how would GGG expect a solo "normal" character to progress through this?

Thanks. I hope somebody relevant actually reads this, although my hopes for a dev response are close to 0.

+1

The thing is, the reason why we have so many viability issues is that this game copied some things from D2, and not others, which is what is causing these issues

The mob system is basically copied from D2, and without a set class system model to work with the mob system (which is what D2,D3,TL,TQ has), you run into these issues

The mobs in PoE, in general, need to be overhauled. Their AI needs to be smarter, they also need to be more dynamic (have more abilities, not be so passive). This makes it easier to fix the melee/ranged problem, and it will also fix the disparity between solo and group play.

You can solo endgame currently, but odds are its going to be a LA/EK/PS ranged tank, and thats because most mobs are retarded (mobs in ledge and fellshrine are prime examples) where as mobs in other maps are seriously anti melee (most churches/dungeons such as Church dungeon and chamber of sins are prime examples, there is also Lunaris 2/3 and Docks)

This is also a side effect of PoE, again doing what other aRPGs do, is instead of scaling the mobs difficulty in various areas, they just did health and damage, which again works fine if you have a set class system, but doesn't with the current skill system that PoE has

To the OP:

I think your problems stem from a certain mindset common in the newish MMOs: level up reach cap, get best gear and "complete" the game.

Some things you must realize in my humble opinion:

-RNG is the ARPGs spice. If you reduce it here and there the game will slowly turn into a dull MMO.

-If the RNG wasn't "bad", everything would be bland, dull and static (like in a newish MMO).
Rolling a good item would lose its value, rare things would become less rare and this does not help in anything.

-Don't strive to "complete" the game or reach the cap. The last levels are supposed to be almost impossible to get. It is a soft cap, much like the cap other games have, but it still allows you to progress - it's just hard and expensive (as it should be).

-Buying maps instead of tossing a ton of chaos on them can be more rewarding. There are always some with excess maps.

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RestInPieces wrote:

To the OP:

I think your problems stem from a certain mindset common in the newish MMOs: level up reach cap, get best gear and "complete" the game.

Some things you must realize in my humble opinion:

-RNG is the ARPGs spice. If you reduce it here and there the game will slowly turn into a dull MMO.

-If the RNG wasn't "bad", everything would be bland, dull and static (like in a newish MMO).
Rolling a good item would lose its value, rare things would become less rare and this does not help in anything.

-Don't strive to "complete" the game or reach the cap. The last levels are supposed to be almost impossible to get. It is a soft cap, much like the cap other games have, but it still allows you to progress - it's just hard and expensive (as it should be).

-Buying maps instead of tossing a ton of chaos on them can be more rewarding. There are always some with excess maps.

Nothing to do with MMOs, but with all RPGs, where you level up as much as possible and strive for best gear and stuff.

I play a self-found game for example. I don't even want the best gear. I just want to find useful incremental upgrades from time to time.

Low level maps are not an issue. The wall is around level 69-70, where basically the same settings that allowed progression in lvl 66-67-68 maps no longer exist, and maps of the same or higher level rarely drop, even with huge +quantity on the maps. This is tested in maybe 200 maps (66 to 72) if not more up to now, I'm 83 and run solo maps from 74.

And people should read exactly what I meant in the post:

I want solo map runs to be at least as rewarding as party map runs, especially as it is more dangerous to run them solo. Higher risk, higher reward, please. Or just say plainly: map runs need exploiting the game with dummy char currency runs while in a party, to be efficient (although they aren't, even in that mode, from what I've read).

This is the core.

Also, please don't put RNG layers over RNG layer and grind layer over grind layer, don't mask old content as new "endgame" content and even more so, itemise it like it is some rare amazing gear, and don't cover for the lack of endgame with a shallow currency sink.

I'm past 80 as well and i agree with what you said about the solo part (especially since i play in HC and solo a lot as well).

My personal experience with upgrades and the wall you mention though differs: I have not "met" any wall yet. I do get satisfactory upgrades from time to time, surely not as often as in the lower levels which is rational.

"

Also, please don't put RNG layers over RNG layer and grind layer over grind layer, don't mask old content as new "endgame" content and even more so, itemise it like it is some rare amazing gear, and don't cover for the lack of endgame with a shallow currency sink.

First, as you can see here, i, too want some end-game enrichment
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/251628

But i believe the map system should remain as it is. Imo it is one more the most decent possible end-games one can think of. The complete RNG of it makes it much more interesting and it's rewards are greatly improved compared to the campaign maps.

People, instead of trying to get it changed, ask for something to complement it!

PS: What would you consider as a "deep" currency sink btw?

I like RNG, but with some limits. What we have now is complete gambling - which I completely dislike (gambling in general). I also like working and grinding for stuff - but with limits too, and visible goals (Example: I know that if I level up 3 times, get my Int to 90 and get strong&skilled enough to do that hard map, some monsters in it will have a chance to drop that cool item that I know it is useful for my build - so I'm gonna suck it up and work for it).

I'm really happy that you didn't hit any wall with the higher level maps. There's another topic where people go in great detail about how their chiseling and rolling ridiculously difficult mods on yellow maps did not even amount to guaranteed (on average) drops of maps of the same level. Without entering in details, this is also my experience. Above level 69, I rolled all maps yellow and with Maze and of Hordes etc., or with crazy crap like temporal chains and Fleet and so on just to increase the quantity. I burned through some 20+ 69-72 maps and basically ran out (have one more 71 map, rest all 66s, because I went back to 67-68 maps in a try to rebuild at least my 69s, but failed). Also obviously ran out of chisels, and only the lucky trades kept me with enough chaoses/alchs to continue to run. Gimping myself with the IIQ/IIR gear I have is not an option, because the mobs hit pretty damn hard on the higher level maps and I'm a casting witch, not some tank, but I still have 40/100 IIQ/IIR.

And even like this, I find myself basically put out of the game, because running 66s is just a mockery at 83 with probably 0.5% XP/run. I could spend my 20 GCPs and 2 Exas to buy maps at ridiculous prices (a 67 is already a Chaos... and I would need 69-70 at least), but I need to accumulate the currency to buy some good gear... in a few months when I get 30-40 Exas like people bid on forums for the good stuff.

A good currency sink you say? Enchants. Crafting components. Resurrections. Gear repairs. Potions. Basically stuff that is unavoidable and will happen to players in the end, and happen often. "Deep"? Nah. Shallow was used with another meaning by me. Efficient? Yup.
But yeah, GGG voluntarily avoided all the sinks and put themselves in this position. Original and "innovative"? Maybe. Efficient? Nah.

Thing is, we ALREADY work and grind through maps. And after all of this work, the rewards are usually lame (vendor rares, low level uniques when you're lucky), with the very rare RNG exceptions. To add to this lameness, you don't even get to continue your grind many times (with exceptions such as your case), because you run out of maps, which is crazy, GGG should strive to keep their players busy playing, and you won't be doing that with no proper reward system in place. Admittedly, given the fact that I am only 83 and between the first 1000 scrubcores, this problem is rare-ish, there are not many people that reached beyond 80, actually many on my friends list, people I once played with in Merciless A3, are now on alts, because they find their high levels not enjoyable any more. Which is lame to me, because I play for the endgame in any RPG, it's the only place where you get to have the good gear&stats&killer spells.

"

Undon3 wrote:

I know that if I level up 3 times, get my Int to 90 and get strong&skilled enough to do that hard map, some monsters in it will have a chance to drop that cool item that I know it is useful for my build - so I'm gonna suck it up and work for it).

I honestly find this pattern dull. It is a typical new age MMO pattern -not saying it in a negative way, i just don't believe it fits with a ARPG hack and slash. The way i see it - not knowing what you will find on a map is a positive thing. And reducing RNG on drops will make them much less valuable, much less rarer and itemization will be quite short-lived.

Don't think RNG benefited me much. But i didn't hit a wall yes. Don't know how it is on SC but i only used alterations on maps (i've read that thread yes). Kept it very safe with ~15-45% quantity only. Spent currency a few times i ran out of maps to buy 2 maps each time and hope for more map drops and until now it has been viable.



In the end as i said earlier, the last levels are a soft cap.
The map system isn't meant to be a continuous grind to 100.If you think of it like that, you will get frustrated. If it was a continuous grind with plentyful maps, would it make the game more interesting - sorry but imo no, it would not. For these reasons, i insist on not changing the current map system, but adding more activities and challenges for high end characters (like those i had in the thread i linked earlier).

"

RestInPieces wrote:

"

Undon3 wrote:

I know that if I level up 3 times, get my Int to 90 and get strong&skilled enough to do that hard map, some monsters in it will have a chance to drop that cool item that I know it is useful for my build - so I'm gonna suck it up and work for it).

I honestly find this pattern dull. It is a typical new age MMO pattern -not saying it in a negative way, i just don't believe it fits with a ARPG hack and slash. The way i see it - not knowing what you will find on a map is a positive thing. And reducing RNG on drops will make them much less valuable, much less rarer and itemization will be quite short-lived.

Don't think RNG benefited me much. But i didn't hit a wall yes. Don't know how it is on SC but i only used alterations on maps (i've read that thread yes). Kept it very safe with ~15-45% quantity only. Spent currency a few times i ran out of maps to buy 2 maps each time and hope for more map drops and until now it has been viable.



In the end as i said earlier, the last levels are a soft cap.
The map system isn't meant to be a continuous grind to 100.If you think of it like that, you will get frustrated. If it was a continuous grind with plentyful maps, would it make the game more interesting - sorry but imo no, it would not. For these reasons, i insist on not changing the current map system, but adding more activities and challenges for high end characters (like those i had in the thread i linked earlier).

Well, sure, I'd like more "activities" for high levels, if they reward XP and items.

And you get me wrong with RNG (because I am really tired at this hour, although a poor excuse, I admit, and not in shape and mood to be very eloquent).

Some items would have a chance to drop from certain zones. It's like this in countless RPGs, yes, including some MMOs. This does NOT means that this certain zone is locked for those items, other random stuff would drop too, so you could have LOTS of surprises. But you would know there is a chance, small or not, to work your way to a certain item, and not be completely prey to randomness.

And we have two different visions about RNG. You enjoy it with no limits, I don't like no limits-->gambling. For you limited RNG seems dull, for me enticing.
As quite a few other people here, you have a defensive mechanism set for anything seemingly MMO-like. Although I am typically from that group (35 yrs old, grew up with ZX Spectrums/C64/Amigas/80286+ PCs, always went for the RPGs, constantly), I have learned to like stuff from many genres.

BTW, PoE is hardly a classical ARPG/Hack&Slash. I'd put it in a new genre of onlines-only, with features from MMOs and RPGs and ARPGs imports. In what proportion the elements mix, will probably never be a constant, and will evolve with the times - just as in any other online-only.

Also, as a reminder for those unwilling to go through all the (sometimes unrelated) discussion:

Please make solo mapping at least as viable from a currency perspective as group mapping, and allow a degree of decent progression, without forcefully sending people back in useless content for their level. (like I will do now, vendor all the 66s to get a few 67s in the hope I can rebuild up to a few 69s and so on. Running the 67s will be a complete waste of time for my char, while also putting me at risk of death and XP loss that I won't have any content to recuperate at my disposal).

"

Undon3 wrote:

Please make solo mapping at least as viable from a currency perspective as group mapping, and allow a degree of decent progression, without forcefully sending people back in useless content for their level. (like I will do now, vendor all the 66s to get a few 67s in the hope I can rebuild up to a few 69s and so on. Running the 67s will be a complete waste of time for my char, while also putting me at risk of death and XP loss that I won't have any content to recuperate at my disposal).

This right here is your problem. Mentally. You see running low level maps as worthless. However, this is where many solo players, including myself, get their currency to run higher lvl maps. Since maps tend to drop so frequently in these lower levels, there's no need to constantly roll them to make them perfect.

I LOVE running these areas with my MF set. This is how people get their currency and progress in solo, which you seem unwilling to do.