Why does GGG listen to top tier players on Reddit & not bother to do proper market research?

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shishkabob wrote:
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Hellything wrote:

You say you teach maths - but you dont understand that making things up does not make them fact.

eg If you say 2 + 2 = 5 By your logic that makes it true.

Bizarre.


Are you sure you're in school studying anything? I think most everyone knows maths isn't a word by at least middle school. You've used it multiple times now, so it's not a simple typo.


Being a 48 year old woman - it would be strange for me to be in school - And as I never said I was in school - you may want to visit your Dr about having delusions you think are real.

Sadly you are showing your lack of worldly knowledge.

In England we say maths - As I am from England I used the correct word.

Thanks for your valuable input lol.
Last edited by Hellything on Apr 15, 2019, 5:47:07 PM
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Hellything wrote:
Analysing figures gives figures - People can make educated guesses from figures but they might not be correct or reflect the full story.

Eg maybe the colours and screen effects of a league causes many players to get migraines and quit. All figures will show is that players quit - Not why. If GGG knew players were quitting because of screen effects they would be able to adjust them.

This is only a marginally valid point. I think you underestimate how detailed the information is that they have on exactly what each player does. Anything that changes your character, every passive point you take, every item you find, how much time you spend in an area: these are all stored in the servers database which can be queried and analized.

That being said they do listen to players to get the information you are talking about because you are right it is important.

The real reason for this thread is that while GGG does listen they just don't obey the every whim of the players, and that is the biggest reason they have been so successful.

Players are dumb. That's right I said it, you are dumb, I am dumb, everybody on this forum or Redit is dumb. Players are like children, they ask for what they want, not for what would make the game better. The auction house thing is the perfect example of players asking for what they think they want and not understanding the long term consequences. GGG hears all the "We want an auction house!" yelling, but chooses not to just give people what they want, because yes they know better than you. (I'm not going to argue about the AH specifically, it's just an example.)

You can think that is a good thing or a bad thing, but GGG is betting on their own ability to design a good game. I personally think they've done a pretty great job even if Synthesis is a bit of a dud.
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beaniac wrote:
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Hellything wrote:
Analysing figures gives figures - People can make educated guesses from figures but they might not be correct or reflect the full story.

Eg maybe the colours and screen effects of a league causes many players to get migraines and quit. All figures will show is that players quit - Not why. If GGG knew players were quitting because of screen effects they would be able to adjust them.

This is only a marginally valid point. I think you underestimate how detailed the information is that they have on exactly what each player does. Anything that changes your character, every passive point you take, every item you find, how much time you spend in an area: these are all stored in the servers database which can be queried and analized.

That being said they do listen to players to get the information you are talking about because you are right it is important.

The real reason for this thread is that while GGG does listen they just don't obey the every whim of the players, and that is the biggest reason they have been so successful.

Players are dumb. That's right I said it, you are dumb, I am dumb, everybody on this forum or Redit is dumb. Players are like children, they ask for what they want, not for what would make the game better. The auction house thing is the perfect example of players asking for what they think they want and not understanding the long term consequences. GGG hears all the "We want an auction house!" yelling, but chooses not to just give people what they want, because yes they know better than you. (I'm not going to argue about the AH specifically, it's just an example.)

You can think that is a good thing or a bad thing, but GGG is betting on their own ability to design a good game. I personally think they've done a pretty great job even if Synthesis is a bit of a dud.


I dont dispute that GGG has made a good game - I just question some decisions and the rationale behind them as described by Chris Wilson in a recent video.

I do not expect GGG to give players everything they want - I agree with you that some things players want would wreck the game in various ways.

Of course GGG knows best what can and cant be done and what impacts could be.

But......Players are customers - Just being asked what we think and GGG considering our concerns/suggestions would earn customer loyalty.

But when Chris Wilson - the leader of GGG admits he bases decisions on what a streamer said or what Reddit says - Its very concerning for ordinary players like me. And working in marketing - I'm really shocked that an on-line game who could easily send out surveys by the click of a button - Doesnt bother to do it to engage with ordinary players ie the majority of its customers.

Blizzard learned to its cost how "not testing the waters" with players can lead to a huge revenue loss - when they introduced a D3 expansion - For phones.

If GGG bothered to send out tailored surveys - they might not only pick up some useful information - They would also make players think GGG is concerned about us too and values what we think.

Its just basic customer management.
Last edited by Hellything on Apr 15, 2019, 7:49:17 PM
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Hellything wrote:

Of course GGG knows best what can and cant be done and what impacts could be.


But when Chris Wilson - the leader of GGG admits he bases decisions on what a streamer said or what Reddit says - Its very concerning for ordinary players like me. And working in marketing - I'm really shocked that an on-line game who could easily send out surveys by the click of a button - Doesnt bother to do it to engage with ordinary players ie the majority of its customers.


Thats most likely not going to work the way you are hoping for.
Sending out surveys doesnt make sure everyone is replying - in fact just a small fraction will participate. And thats not the casuals players but the die-hard fans.
The interests of the die-hard faction might not align with yours. So be careful what you wish for. Such a survey will be biased as hell for sure and wont show the results you are hoping for - most likely not.

Also you should totally understand why Chris is doing it as you described - he even says it: The vast majority of players will never get so see the super lategame stuff, which is why they are watching streamers. So if there wasnt content, that ordinary players cant get access to or cant handle themselves, then no one would watch the streamers.
And those streamers are generating free PR. 100% free, available 24/7 round the clock.
Since you are working in marketing, you should understand why this is important and why this wont change anytime soon.

So the name of the game is:
Generate content for streamers - keep them hooked and entertained, so they keep playing, which generates free PR and will attract new players, which is potential revenue and growing the market share of the game.
The bigger your market share, the more free press coverage a new league/expansion is going to get and this will obviously attract new players as well.

Its not about keeping players happy, its about growth.
You can disagree with this goal all you want, doesnt change the fact you are not in charge and you are not calling the shots.

Given GGGs overall success you shouldnt expect major changes to their business model anytime soon. They will continue trying to grow the game for as long as they possibly can. As someone else already said: They have all the relevant numbers.
As long as more new players are joining than veterans are quitting GGG does it right from a business point of view.
Last edited by Orbaal on Apr 16, 2019, 4:44:26 AM
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Hellything wrote:


I mentioned Betrayal as an example - But I am no liar and posted this after watching the Chris Wilson video and being shocked that he admitted to forming a business strategy based on what a Streamer said and what Reddit users say.


What so you can't listen to a streamers advice, even if its good advice, because its a streamer? Also I'm pretty sure your adding the reddit bias yourself he mentioned reddit getting mad later on but it was unrelated.

The irony in all this is that the video has the answer you are desperately trying to avoid why do it? Because it works, they have the best release model of any F2P model game i've played and despite the fact its an outdated pos that looks like it was modeled out of potato letters it has actually been growing.

No business gives a fuck what its consumers want while its growing cause if it aint broke don't fix it.
don't you play forever exile?

on the topic on matter anyway, because streamers control this game from the economy to builds.. GGG knows streamers will do publicity for them so yeah the game is balanced and mostly made for them, the rest is easy more income for GGG from new players cuz their fanbois are easily baited into throw money easily so they look like their favourite streamer.

3 weeks playing the game btw I kinda figured everything out almost.. yet some game mechanics elude me.. for now.
Last edited by Xystre on Apr 16, 2019, 5:16:45 AM
This thread feels like a bash on Betrayal veiled by a request for GGG to take more input from the player base.

If not, my mistake and here is my commentary on the suggestion which echos what many have said in this thread: players may think they know what they want, but they certainly don't know what they need when it comes to making a successful long lasting game. One simple look in the suggestions section reveals a horde of what I consider to be bad ideas but the person suggesting it likely thinks it is good (and it may very well be good, who am I to say?).

There are times where GGG has appeared to be stubborn beyond comprehension. As an example, their stance on desync years ago and the majority of the game remaining on the server to avoid easy client side exploits. For years, players dealt with desync which for some made the game unplayable. The easy answer would have been to move away from the game residing on the server and the client doing its best to mirror; and toward the game trusting the client more.

I would argue that time has vindicated them on this matter as lockstep being introduced largely removed the issue, and they never compromised to what I feel was the majority of the player base -- which would have opened the door to a ton of exploits/cheats.

We don't know their vision. I would argue they are not even stubborn to their vision completely. As an example, I'm convinced that Bestiary was meant to go into the core game immediately as it was designed, but they heard the community and didn't put it in immediately. Now they still stubbornly stuck to finding a way to get it into the game but in a manner that might be better received. I also think the community was wrong on this matter but to each his own. In this particular situation, they found a way to stick to their vision and listen to the player base. Win/Win.


Now if this is a veiled thread about Betrayal (I think it is), then I would argue that betrayal is just a more complex and rewarding version of Anarchy (rogue exiles) going core. Exiles are largely a non-factor now, but they were. Early on, running into Igna Phoenix, Xandro Blooddrinker, Vickas Giantbone, or Magnus Stonethorn was a turn and run moment. You might argue that they don't jump out right on you, but Magnus' Flameblast started offscreen at the time and god forbid the map had increased cast speed or AOE....that was a death sentence with him. Look at them now. Not even a speed bump in our wake of death. Hell, I would argue Betrayal now is easier than the hard Rogue Exiles were back then.
Last edited by Nubatron on Apr 16, 2019, 10:40:23 AM
Deleted.
Last edited by Nubatron on Apr 16, 2019, 10:40:42 AM
Wasn't there an official poll for nets in Bestiary?
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Slaanesh69 wrote:
Wasn't there an official poll for nets in Bestiary?


Yes and people freaked out because of this poll...

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