GGG on Balancing Melee

Heh, many valid points were raised, and a few noteworthy solutions proposed...

It's up to TencentGGG to actually comprehend and address the problems that "melee" faces as a playstyle, and especially as an "IDENTITY" in PoE.

I'm still leveling to 100 with my main dual wielding RT character (a Juggernaut) and it's disheartening to see that I can facetank almost anything except really long windup attacks (which is intended) and suicidal mods like Crit + multiple % added as ele & - max with both no leech + no regen slapped. The "fun" fact is that certain situations presume either a Crit (+ multiple hits) happen in <1 sec so HP goes from full to <0 or you simply enjoy that "mythical" ONE SHOT from time to time...

I don't mind that the game punishes any error on player side, but I do have a BIG PROBLEM when the game is doing that in an "unfair" way, just to make sure you'll actually die "sometime"...

Armour, as a defensive ability, still has a nice feeling especially on T16 and higher content, versus the "lesser" monsters, but it could also use a boost towards a bit more utility versus those "big hits".

Making elemental damage the most dangerous one, has the effect of having everyone "enjoy the diversity" of 75% capped elemental resistance AT MINIMUM. Much diversity, much WOW...

Chaos damage, either direct or DoT, is almost spot ON, regarding the danger/investment reward ratio. Elemental damage should follow the same path, and dropping the + % max res from flasks might signal a rebalance regarding those in 4.0 or later on.

Fortify was always overlooked, and it should also be addressed, @e1337donkey has a very nice post just on the first page, that could be a perfect starting point.

I had the chance to experience a lot of "melee" skills and real MELEE skills, and I know that "MELEE" as a playstyle, needs an identity, a niche, where it needs to be "The best there is at what it does. And what it does, it ain't pretty". I am certain that namelocking melee, or REAL MELEE (if TencentGGG ever address the targeting issues that plague this playstyle), could use various buffs, regarding it's damage output, survivability, and positioning via movement skills...

It's up to them to actually implement solutions in a "timely" manner (they are needed since "a veeeeeeeeeery long time ago"), let's hope they actually hit the mark in their 3.7.0 update...

PS: Static Strike rework towards more mobility is a "miss" more than a "hit" regarding it's single target potential, which is more than sad, as they should have addressed this aspect during the Betrayal patch...

"

trezorzetto wrote:

Spoiler

"

very small selection

bro i can use any melee skill and kill all bosses(on my champion), maybe uber elder (shaper no problem), this is not small selection for me, i make on 3 characters melee scion, jugger and champion,(all 3 fine) i dont get u guys, for real

"Bro", we can all make builds that kill ANYTHING with REAL NAMELOCKING MELEE, but we also need a lot better items and a lot better skillplay to do so than your regular ranged/cast builds...

Besides, try dual wielding RT versus anything Crit or even EO, it's like you turn the difficulty dial way above max - not to even mention having range/cast skills in comparison...

And namelock melee could be made to "work decent enough" by having it buffed like Double Strike/Vaal Double Strike were...

As I said, REAL MELEE needs a purpose. As soon as it gets it, it doesn't even matters if it's not as great as ranged or cast playstyles. It will simply have it's niche, and will be played as an alternative that encourages DIVERSITY...

"

kittywoofmeow wrote:

"

trezorzetto wrote:

dont need, anyone can make decent build and kill uber elder, plz try more and cry less

By using the same cookie-cutter build template with a very small selection of active skill gems from a huge pool.

PoE problem isn't that the balance is bad, its that there is no balance at all.

Every league i try to make some unique good melee build and they always end up cookie cutter skeleton meta build in the end, cuz majority of stuff just don't work even if you drop massive amounts of currency and stuff on it.

Well, tbf, this guy just did it with plain old Cleave (in SSFHC too), albeit it was meant as a challenge - https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/atwkoz/steelmage_finishes_quins_ssfhc_melee_uber_elder/

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Heh, many valid points were raised, and a few noteworthy solutions proposed...

It's up to TencentGGG to actually comprehend and address the problems that "melee" faces as a playstyle, and especially as an "IDENTITY" in PoE.

I'm still leveling to 100 with my main dual wielding RT character (a Juggernaut) and it's disheartening to see that I can facetank almost anything except really long windup attacks (which is intended) and suicidal mods like Crit + multiple % added as ele & - max with both no leech + no regen slapped. The "fun" fact is that certain situations presume either a Crit (+ multiple hits) happen in <1 sec so HP goes from full to <0 or you simply enjoy that "mythical" ONE SHOT from time to time...

I don't mind that the game punishes any error on player side, but I do have a BIG PROBLEM when the game is doing that in an "unfair" way, just to make sure you'll actually die "sometime"...

Armour, as a defensive ability, still has a nice feeling especially on T16 and higher content, versus the "lesser" monsters, but it could also use a boost towards a bit more utility versus those "big hits".

Making elemental damage the most dangerous one, has the effect of having everyone "enjoy the diversity" of 75% capped elemental resistance AT MINIMUM. Much diversity, much WOW...

Chaos damage, either direct or DoT, is almost spot ON, regarding the danger/investment reward ratio. Elemental damage should follow the same path, and dropping the + % max res from flasks might signal a rebalance regarding those in 4.0 or later on.

Fortify was always overlooked, and it should also be addressed, @e1337donkey has a very nice post just on the first page, that could be a perfect starting point.

I had the chance to experience a lot of "melee" skills and real MELEE skills, and I know that "MELEE" as a playstyle, needs an identity, a niche, where it needs to be "The best there is at what it does. And what it does, it ain't pretty". I am certain that namelocking melee, or REAL MELEE (if TencentGGG ever address the targeting issues that plague this playstyle), could use various buffs, regarding it's damage output, survivability, and positioning via movement skills...

It's up to them to actually implement solutions in a "timely" manner (they are needed since "a veeeeeeeeeery long time ago"), let's hope they actually hit the mark in their 3.7.0 update...

PS: Static Strike rework towards more mobility is a "miss" more than a "hit" regarding it's single target potential, which is more than sad, as they should have addressed this aspect during the Betrayal patch...

Practicing with those rags yet?

I would love to see TGGG fix the targeting issue. if they can at least address that then it is a start. However I still have no faith in them to do anything with melee. They have spent so much time trying to get melee to stop being melee it is laughable that they could even get melee to work at this point.

I honestly think they never really understood why people play melee in the first place.

As long as they lack this understanding they will never get melee to work at all. Well one can hope and dream. Perhaps the eagles will come...or maybe the eagles are here just that they are moderately sized pigeons


They still have to solve "The Riddle of Melee"
1. Targeting
2. Positioning and Movement
3. Defense
4. Damage Options
5. Damage

So far they have addressed a very small part of defense. Other than that they still have a long way to go. If only someone on that team was more inclined toward mechanics.

PS: why you got to bring up static strike? Hasn't it suffered enough?

"

bionicg2040 wrote:

Spoiler

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Heh, many valid points were raised, and a few noteworthy solutions proposed...

It's up to TencentGGG to actually comprehend and address the problems that "melee" faces as a playstyle, and especially as an "IDENTITY" in PoE.

I'm still leveling to 100 with my main dual wielding RT character (a Juggernaut) and it's disheartening to see that I can facetank almost anything except really long windup attacks (which is intended) and suicidal mods like Crit + multiple % added as ele & - max with both no leech + no regen slapped. The "fun" fact is that certain situations presume either a Crit (+ multiple hits) happen in <1 sec so HP goes from full to <0 or you simply enjoy that "mythical" ONE SHOT from time to time...

I don't mind that the game punishes any error on player side, but I do have a BIG PROBLEM when the game is doing that in an "unfair" way, just to make sure you'll actually die "sometime"...

Armour, as a defensive ability, still has a nice feeling especially on T16 and higher content, versus the "lesser" monsters, but it could also use a boost towards a bit more utility versus those "big hits".

Making elemental damage the most dangerous one, has the effect of having everyone "enjoy the diversity" of 75% capped elemental resistance AT MINIMUM. Much diversity, much WOW...

Chaos damage, either direct or DoT, is almost spot ON, regarding the danger/investment reward ratio. Elemental damage should follow the same path, and dropping the + % max res from flasks might signal a rebalance regarding those in 4.0 or later on.

Fortify was always overlooked, and it should also be addressed, @e1337donkey has a very nice post just on the first page, that could be a perfect starting point.

I had the chance to experience a lot of "melee" skills and real MELEE skills, and I know that "MELEE" as a playstyle, needs an identity, a niche, where it needs to be "The best there is at what it does. And what it does, it ain't pretty". I am certain that namelocking melee, or REAL MELEE (if TencentGGG ever address the targeting issues that plague this playstyle), could use various buffs, regarding it's damage output, survivability, and positioning via movement skills...

It's up to them to actually implement solutions in a "timely" manner (they are needed since "a veeeeeeeeeery long time ago"), let's hope they actually hit the mark in their 3.7.0 update...

PS: Static Strike rework towards more mobility is a "miss" more than a "hit" regarding it's single target potential, which is more than sad, as they should have addressed this aspect during the Betrayal patch...

Practicing with those rags yet?

I would love to see TGGG fix the targeting issue. if they can at least address that then it is a start. However I still have no faith in them to do anything with melee. They have spent so much time trying to get melee to stop being melee it is laughable that they could even get melee to work at this point.

I honestly think they never really understood why people play melee in the first place.

As long as they lack this understanding they will never get melee to work at all. Well one can hope and dream. Perhaps the eagles will come...or maybe the eagles are here just that they are moderately sized pigeons


They still have to solve "The Riddle of Melee"
1. Targeting
2. Positioning and Movement
3. Defense
4. Damage Options
5. Damage

So far they have addressed a very small part of defense. Other than that they still have a long way to go. If only someone on that team was more inclined toward mechanics.

PS: why you got to bring up static strike? Hasn't it suffered enough?

Not throwing the damn towel yet! ^^

They CAN solve "The Riddle of Melee", but the correct questions are "HOW?" and "WHEN?" ...

As a small amount of hope appeared when they buffed the one handed weapon base damage, but it was swiftly "snuffed out" with all the glorious reworks of AoE, removal of stat sticks ONLY for melee, etc., etc., while the projectile offscreen damage rework is as unsolvable as the riddle above...

We all know that TencentGGG "1K pretzel eating meme dev & balance teams" tends to hit the right mark once in a blue moon, but please, they really need to "git gud & up to snuff", and implement sensible solutions to problems in a more timely manner...

PS: Static Strike was for a long time my favourite skill, and it serves as a harsh reminder about the said teams "capabilities"... If they deemed that "gud enuf" to be released and kept in that state for a while, I shudder to even think about the next 3.7.0 "melee" rework...

Melee needs rework or strong buff!

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

"

bionicg2040 wrote:

Spoiler

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Heh, many valid points were raised, and a few noteworthy solutions proposed...

It's up to TencentGGG to actually comprehend and address the problems that "melee" faces as a playstyle, and especially as an "IDENTITY" in PoE.

I'm still leveling to 100 with my main dual wielding RT character (a Juggernaut) and it's disheartening to see that I can facetank almost anything except really long windup attacks (which is intended) and suicidal mods like Crit + multiple % added as ele & - max with both no leech + no regen slapped. The "fun" fact is that certain situations presume either a Crit (+ multiple hits) happen in <1 sec so HP goes from full to <0 or you simply enjoy that "mythical" ONE SHOT from time to time...

I don't mind that the game punishes any error on player side, but I do have a BIG PROBLEM when the game is doing that in an "unfair" way, just to make sure you'll actually die "sometime"...

Armour, as a defensive ability, still has a nice feeling especially on T16 and higher content, versus the "lesser" monsters, but it could also use a boost towards a bit more utility versus those "big hits".

Making elemental damage the most dangerous one, has the effect of having everyone "enjoy the diversity" of 75% capped elemental resistance AT MINIMUM. Much diversity, much WOW...

Chaos damage, either direct or DoT, is almost spot ON, regarding the danger/investment reward ratio. Elemental damage should follow the same path, and dropping the + % max res from flasks might signal a rebalance regarding those in 4.0 or later on.

Fortify was always overlooked, and it should also be addressed, @e1337donkey has a very nice post just on the first page, that could be a perfect starting point.

I had the chance to experience a lot of "melee" skills and real MELEE skills, and I know that "MELEE" as a playstyle, needs an identity, a niche, where it needs to be "The best there is at what it does. And what it does, it ain't pretty". I am certain that namelocking melee, or REAL MELEE (if TencentGGG ever address the targeting issues that plague this playstyle), could use various buffs, regarding it's damage output, survivability, and positioning via movement skills...

It's up to them to actually implement solutions in a "timely" manner (they are needed since "a veeeeeeeeeery long time ago"), let's hope they actually hit the mark in their 3.7.0 update...

PS: Static Strike rework towards more mobility is a "miss" more than a "hit" regarding it's single target potential, which is more than sad, as they should have addressed this aspect during the Betrayal patch...

Practicing with those rags yet?

I would love to see TGGG fix the targeting issue. if they can at least address that then it is a start. However I still have no faith in them to do anything with melee. They have spent so much time trying to get melee to stop being melee it is laughable that they could even get melee to work at this point.

I honestly think they never really understood why people play melee in the first place.

As long as they lack this understanding they will never get melee to work at all. Well one can hope and dream. Perhaps the eagles will come...or maybe the eagles are here just that they are moderately sized pigeons


They still have to solve "The Riddle of Melee"
1. Targeting
2. Positioning and Movement
3. Defense
4. Damage Options
5. Damage

So far they have addressed a very small part of defense. Other than that they still have a long way to go. If only someone on that team was more inclined toward mechanics.

PS: why you got to bring up static strike? Hasn't it suffered enough?

Not throwing the damn towel yet! ^^

They CAN solve "The Riddle of Melee", but the correct questions are "HOW?" and "WHEN?" ...

As a small amount of hope appeared when they buffed the one handed weapon base damage, but it was swiftly "snuffed out" with all the glorious reworks of AoE, removal of stat sticks ONLY for melee, etc., etc., while the projectile offscreen damage rework is as unsolvable as the riddle above...

We all know that TencentGGG "1K pretzel eating meme dev & balance teams" tends to hit the right mark once in a blue moon, but please, they really need to "git gud & up to snuff", and implement sensible solutions to problems in a more timely manner...

PS: Static Strike was for a long time my favourite skill, and it serves as a harsh reminder about the said teams "capabilities"... If they deemed that "gud enuf" to be released and kept in that state for a while, I shudder to even think about the next 3.7.0 "melee" rework...

No they can not solve "The Riddle of Melee" they have literally failed at every chance they have had. Maybe they never wanted to solve it in the first place. Like I said before they do no understand why players play melee in the first place. So they keep trying to push totems, projectiles, and spells that act like melee skills onto melee players with mixed results.

So lets talk about HOW.

Targeting
1. Cone shape? POE-nope
2. Auto Target radius of 10 at base? POE-nope
3. Attack while moving? POE-nope
4. Attack Cancel? POE-nope
5. Built in AOE on attacks? POE-nope
6. Built in Cleave on attacks? POE-nope (Ultralisk Starcraft 1)
7. Wedge of Cheese? (seeing if you are paying attention) POE-nope

You see every other ARPG has at least 4 of the 7 that i have listed. POE has nor has even tried to implement any of this despite all the time they have had to do so. Still think they can solve "The Riddle?"


Movement/Positiong
1. Dash in Mechanic? POE-nope (you can argue movement skills here but in other ARPGs melee has a free dash in mechanic that cost nothing and have separate movement skills also) (hell D2 had a dash in mechanic for melee but nooo this would be too OP for melee they do not need it because targeting for movement skills are great...what's that? they are just as bad as targeting for attack skills? well shit that does not help at all. oh well i will just use the num pad trick until GGG figures it out)
2. Melee archetypes have faster movement than the others? POE-nope


Defense
1. Melee only stuff? POE-nope (ex: fortify)
2. Anti Range mechanics? POE-they have 1 and only one. (you are wondering how Anti range mechanics factor in? what is the point of going melee if every single enemy mechanic only targets melee? I mean i can build a lot of great and sturdy defenses have tons of life but at the same time i am constantly getting beat up because everything only targets me for being at close range. Are there anti range mechanics besides proxy shield? no? well shit)
3. Proper trade off of defense vs offense for melee? POE-nope


Damage Options
1. Melee can scale a multitude of damage types? POE-nope (bleed, ele conversion and physical (who is silly enough to go straight physical?)
2. Specific utilities that do not have to be used to make the set up work? POE-nope
3. Defensive penetrations for melee? POE-nope
4. Turn melee into something it is not? POE-yes
5. Any utility options for melee that are actually good? POE-nope


Damage
1. Melee hit harder than anything else because of the risk? POE-nope
2. 5% damage increase many patches ago to "help" melee? POE-yes
3. Compensate melee when AOE was crippled? POE-nope (to be fair unique to POE)
4. Compensate melee when DW stat sticking was destroyed? POE-nope (to be fair unique to POE)


so how about the WHEN then?
1. Targeting should have been fixed since closed beta
2. Movement should have been fixed since closed beta
3. Defense should have been constantly adjusted throughout the years (not hastily done just before patches)
4. Damage Options should have been constantly adjusted throughout the years (not hastily done just before patches)
5. Damage should have been constantly adjusted throughout the years (not hastily done just before patches how did you like 2.4?)

They will solve it in 3.7 by turning melee into range and spells like they have been doing for some time now. I am sure you will enjoy "long range melee combat." It is just as good. Perhaps you would like some more totems or banners?

For melee what is the difference between:
A. Charging in and engaging monsters?
B. Setting up a bunch of stuff first then engaging monsters?

GGG does not understand that MELEE PLAYERS WANT TO FIGHT
FIGHT
FIGHT
FIGHT
FIGHT
we do not want to plant totems, we do not want to attack in the distance we do not want to cast spells and shit. WE WANT TO FIGHT. My idea of power is Lu Bu at Hu Loa Gate, Guts (Berserk) killing demons and whatnot, Sabin suplexing a train, etc.


Melee Players after hearing about melee "being on the radar" for 3.7:



GGG just before 3.7

Close enough to eagles...

I think GGG needs to stop focusing on specific areas of game play each league.. When is the last time melee got a major overhaul?? Casting and ranged bow have seriously power creeped beyond the capabilities of melee and GGG has done absolutely nothing to fix it (besides added shitty hybrid skills to patch the problem). I refuse to play Synthesis, I am not doing another league with a caster, It is not the play style I enjoy. I enjoy playing melee, but with its current state, I refuse to play.

If you read between the lines of a lot of their posts you can tell that GGG is toning down (and repackaging) some of the spell multipliers and sticking (or hiding) that into what they are calling spell buffs. If you look at the actual math they have changed so far it actually seems like they are bringing spells and caster mechanics more in line.

I do have to say I went from my first character (new near the end of league) a molten strike jugg to trying an SSF elementalist after the synthesis announcement, and the jugg has a lot going for it. I never got stunned as a jugg or totally stomped on. The betrayal stuff seemed so easy on the jugg you just stand there and spam them it almost seemed pointless or like free loot, with the witch I am running in circles and just barely staying alive (or getting 1 shot jumped on and ganked).

Being SSF I think has some to do with it but a lot of the melee mechanics do as well. I feel like my witch's passive tree is a lot more stretched out.

Fixing melee would be pretty easy...

A - increase the raw damage per hit by... a LOT.
B - reduce secondary 'splash' affects (molten strike, tec slam) so that they're actually melee rather than ranged.
C - Add an automatic added global defense modifier to all melee skills, or simple received damage reduction across the board. The closer the character needs to be to 'hit' the more the modifiers. Or, perhaps, give mobs a minimum range limitation - archers need to be at range 5, for example, otherwise they can't hit and will try to move beyond range 5 rather than attack.
D - Give all melee skills automatic life leech of 10-15% that is inherent and cannot be modified, though it can be supplemented by the current leach mechanics.

Melee, fixed.