A - increase the raw damage per hit by... a LOT.
B - reduce secondary 'splash' affects (molten strike, tec slam) so that they're actually melee rather than ranged.
C - Add an automatic added global defense modifier to all melee skills, or simple received damage reduction across the board. The closer the character needs to be to 'hit' the more the modifiers. Or, perhaps, give mobs a minimum range limitation - archers need to be at range 5, for example, otherwise they can't hit and will try to move beyond range 5 rather than attack.
D - Give all melee skills automatic life leech of 10-15% that is inherent and cannot be modified, though it can be supplemented by the current leach mechanics.
Melee, fixed.
Also i think B and C would help, i think they would only be bandaid fixed to a core issue PoE has. That is basically the blatant powercreep in the game.
As long as Range characters are able to explode a whole screen or more at once melee will never compete. Because either melee has to run from pack to pack, that means regardles how fast the can kill small groups , they will take 3-4times as long for the same amount of enemies as range characters. Or they "fix" melee by also allowing it to also kill a whole screen at once, effective removing the concept of melee from the game.
So for melee to ever be comparable speedclearing/screenwide clearing **Has** to be nerfed. And you know how a large part of the playerbase reacts to even the smallest nerfs.
If they were to actually seriously dial back the powercreep they could then look at some further issues.
Your "deadzone" approach is actually pretty interesting and would add an actual advantage to beeing in melee which i like. One of my wishes though is a reduction of bursty monser damage. Now to compensate that GGG would have to also nerf sustain options and remove the possibility of a logout macro. A fight beeing a danger because enemies might slowly whittle you down would be a dream for me, as it would really work to solidify the fantasy of a melee fighter that survives by the skin of his teeth.
The Bestiary league proved once and for all, that GGG only listens to crying instead of well thought out criticism.
No they can not solve "The Riddle of Melee" they have literally failed at every chance they have had. Maybe they never wanted to solve it in the first place. Like I said before they do no understand why players play melee in the first place. So they keep trying to push totems, projectiles, and spells that act like melee skills onto melee players with mixed results.
So lets talk about HOW.
Targeting
1. Cone shape? POE-nope
2. Auto Target radius of 10 at base? POE-nope
3. Attack while moving? POE-nope
4. Attack Cancel? POE-nope
5. Built in AOE on attacks? POE-nope
6. Built in Cleave on attacks? POE-nope (Ultralisk Starcraft 1)
7. Wedge of Cheese? (seeing if you are paying attention) POE-nope
You see every other ARPG has at least 4 of the 7 that i have listed. POE has nor has even tried to implement any of this despite all the time they have had to do so. Still think they can solve "The Riddle?"
Movement/Positiong
1. Dash in Mechanic? POE-nope (you can argue movement skills here but in other ARPGs melee has a free dash in mechanic that cost nothing and have separate movement skills also) (hell D2 had a dash in mechanic for melee but nooo this would be too OP for melee they do not need it because targeting for movement skills are great...what's that? they are just as bad as targeting for attack skills? well shit that does not help at all. oh well i will just use the num pad trick until GGG figures it out)
2. Melee archetypes have faster movement than the others? POE-nope
Defense
1. Melee only stuff? POE-nope (ex: fortify)
2. Anti Range mechanics? POE-they have 1 and only one. (you are wondering how Anti range mechanics factor in? what is the point of going melee if every single enemy mechanic only targets melee? I mean i can build a lot of great and sturdy defenses have tons of life but at the same time i am constantly getting beat up because everything only targets me for being at close range. Are there anti range mechanics besides proxy shield? no? well shit)
3. Proper trade off of defense vs offense for melee? POE-nope
Damage Options
1. Melee can scale a multitude of damage types? POE-nope (bleed, ele conversion and physical (who is silly enough to go straight physical?)
2. Specific utilities that do not have to be used to make the set up work? POE-nope
3. Defensive penetrations for melee? POE-nope
4. Turn melee into something it is not? POE-yes
5. Any utility options for melee that are actually good? POE-nope
Damage
1. Melee hit harder than anything else because of the risk? POE-nope
2. 5% damage increase many patches ago to "help" melee? POE-yes
3. Compensate melee when AOE was crippled? POE-nope (to be fair unique to POE)
4. Compensate melee when DW stat sticking was destroyed? POE-nope (to be fair unique to POE)
so how about the WHEN then?
1. Targeting should have been fixed since closed beta
2. Movement should have been fixed since closed beta
3. Defense should have been constantly adjusted throughout the years (not hastily done just before patches)
4. Damage Options should have been constantly adjusted throughout the years (not hastily done just before patches)
5. Damage should have been constantly adjusted throughout the years (not hastily done just before patches how did you like 2.4?)
They will solve it in 3.7 by turning melee into range and spells like they have been doing for some time now. I am sure you will enjoy "long range melee combat." It is just as good. Perhaps you would like some more totems or banners?
For melee what is the difference between:
A. Charging in and engaging monsters?
B. Setting up a bunch of stuff first then engaging monsters?
GGG does not understand that MELEE PLAYERS WANT TO FIGHT
FIGHT
FIGHT
FIGHT
FIGHT
we do not want to plant totems, we do not want to attack in the distance we do not want to cast spells and shit. WE WANT TO FIGHT. My idea of power is Lu Bu at Hu Loa Gate, Guts (Berserk) killing demons and whatnot, Sabin suplexing a train, etc.
Melee Players after hearing about melee "being on the radar" for 3.7:
GGG just before 3.7
Close enough to eagles...
Well, as I said, TencentGGG dev & balance teams fully deserve their current "1k pretzel eating meme" status.
I know that miracles might happen, and even them could still see the light (and grant us eagles like in LotR or even Griffins)...
Besides, the rework to reflect rares is at least a bit more detrimental to ranged characters than melee ones...
But as I fully agree with you on everything else, we both know that @Charan was spot on when he realized that even goddamn shooters like Doom or UT make their biggest damage dealing weapons usage limited due to their damage output, while PoE lets both the ranged and cast playstyles run rampant in PoE with 0 consideration about something as "obvious" like this...
I still hold those teams in "some" regard, as we actually don't have anyone else doing that job, but my anticipation about their capability of properly addressing these problems is somewhere around that unlimited depth in a Delve...
PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"...
Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days...
Last edited by sofocle10000#6408 on Feb 28, 2019, 11:53:05 PM
Melee is “unrepairable”, at least in the meaning of the alternative for ranged. As a last resort, it can be changed to ranged, which technically will be called melee. What already happens anyway. Wilde strike, molten strike, frost blades, even tectonic slam… This is “melee”? Give me a break. It is short or middle range ranged, but called “melee” (maybe playerbase doesn’t spot this). Alternatively, Tencent could make a niche niche with "pure" melee skills, where characters could be killed only by oneshoot, but such characters would have to sacrifice clearspeed.
Such “repair” would be quite simple. It would be enough to add to the ascendency tree some node like “immune to all garbage like homing balls, lightning mirages, explosive corpses and every other shit primarily designed to kill ranged builds, while using physical melee skills” and restore “old” Vaal pact. Along with these changes defence for “real” melee characters should by buffed accordingly, like – armour can protect from ele/chaos damage too and so. In that case, we would get character with really poor clearspeed, but killable only by big shots, like Shapers slam or Elders… Elders wave which can oneshoot you if you are not close enough.
As outcome, players could choose, whether they want to oneshoot off-screan everything that moves, at the cost of survivability or clear one map 7-10 minutes, with nearly immortal character.
A lot of you have very negative views towards melee balance. Melee balance honestly isn't all too distant. We already have very strong outliers for melee skills (Molten Strike, Blade Flurry, Vaal Double Strike). There are a couple of others that are good enough (Vaal Ground Slam). The main reason people do not use melee is that there is very little punishment for ranged class cannon play. You can ignore too many mechanics just by being ranged so why bother with melee.
We have the lord's labyrinth, delve and soon to go core betrayal leagues as far as content that is difficult for glass cannon ranged play. Since you can't avoid incoming damage, you will get hit eventually. 2 of those league mechanics you can ignore. GGG adding challenging content into the game that you cannot avoid ( Betrayal ) is a win for melee builds since they tend to build tanky out of necessity. If we assume that this is a trend that will continue with future leagues then there is light at the end of the tunnel as far as melee balance goes.
Also, people who think that the spell pass in 3.6 is just going to be buffs are out of their minds. There will be some nerfs thrown in there.
A lot of you have very negative views towards melee balance. Melee balance honestly isn't all too distant. We already have very strong outliers for melee skills (Molten Strike, Blade Flurry, Vaal Double Strike). There are a couple of others that are good enough (Vaal Ground Slam). The main reason people do not use melee is that there is very little punishment for ranged class cannon play. You can ignore too many mechanics just by being ranged so why bother with melee.
... dude, it's possible to be just as tanky with spells as with blade flurry and double strike. Only bow builds have noticeably worse defenses, and ascendants in particular can often fight that off by wearing Kaom's Heart. There's a reason that almost all projectile builds take point blank.
Moreover, I don't think you understand how badly melee was nerfed with the stat stick annihilation. Molten Strike is the only one that truly survived the purge. Do people still use blade flurry and vaal double strike? yes. Can those builds realistically scale to millions of dps anymore in-league? Not really....
Melee is “unrepairable”, at least in the meaning of the alternative for ranged. As a last resort, it can be changed to ranged, which technically will be called melee. What already happens anyway. Wilde strike, molten strike, frost blades, even tectonic slam… This is “melee”? Give me a break. It is short or middle range ranged, but called “melee” (maybe playerbase doesn’t spot this). Alternatively, Tencent could make a niche niche with "pure" melee skills, where characters could be killed only by oneshoot, but such characters would have to sacrifice clearspeed.
Such “repair” would be quite simple. It would be enough to add to the ascendency tree some node like “immune to all garbage like homing balls, lightning mirages, explosive corpses and every other shit primarily designed to kill ranged builds, while using physical melee skills” and restore “old” Vaal pact. Along with these changes defence for “real” melee characters should by buffed accordingly, like – armour can protect from ele/chaos damage too and so. In that case, we would get character with really poor clearspeed, but killable only by big shots, like Shapers slam or Elders… Elders wave which can oneshoot you if you are not close enough.
As outcome, players could choose, whether they want to oneshoot off-screan everything that moves, at the cost of survivability or clear one map 7-10 minutes, with nearly immortal character.
No, that is not fixing the issue, it is patching it.. Melee is melee, there is no ranged in melee. The skills you mentioned are hybrid skills meant to patch the issue of melee falling behind. It is NOT a fix. They could easily fix melee by increasing melee splash aoe range, adjusting base items numbers slightly, reworking old useless uniques.. The major problem with melee is anything that is useful is expensive as shit. You can make a caster for 10c which can compare to a melee you sink 3-4 exalts into. The philosophy GGG has of don't get hit, or you die is bullshit, especially for a melee class.
I'm not sure you know how @ works on this forum, sof. Hint: it doesn't. But feel free to quote me next time you want my participation. Unless you didn't. Fuck, am I that guy? We were talking about you, not to you, that kind of thing. Probably. Too bad. HERE NOW.
As for 3.7, we'll see. I'm not exactly dropping The One Ring into a literal volcano in the middle of a literal war to save the literal fucking world, so I don't much give two fucks if the eagles come or not. I don't think fixing melee is as easy as some people here want or even are claiming it to be. I don't think it's unsalvageable. I do seriously question if there's much need for it at this point.
Can we, as a collective player base, go back to Golden Axe after playing Ikaruga for years? Some of us never stopped playing Golden Axe so for us any melee improvements are like the ejaculate of the Gods, but for everyone else who saddled up and realised that real progress in this game demands multiple projectiles and nice, big explosions on demand, ad nauseum, I suspect 'melee improvements' might range from 'a harmless waste of time' (5% damage buff) to 'fucking ruining the game outright' (way, way more anti-ranged/AoE measures like more proximity bubbles, off-screen damage reflect, teleporting enemies, homing missiles, significant, unmitigable resource costs per cast/usage of big nukes...oh yeah, I could make this game *hell* for back-seat players...and kill it in 5 seconds flat.)
Better, I think, to accept what PoE is and, if you can, enjoy it for that. I don't think there's some magic bullet for fixing melee, and if there is, TencentGGG aren't quite willing to pull that trigger. They haven't for years. If anything, they've taken the easy way out time and again. Oh, players like power? Here, have LOTS. Oh, you're playing ranged? Awesome, we always wanted to make a shooting game anyway.
I don't regret anything re PoE (except the Grandmaster pack, because oh my god what a fucking scam that was), but were I able to tell 2012 me just how out of control this game would get in 6 years' time, I'm very confident I'd have hesitated before supporting as I did. This isn't the game I was sold on. 2012 GGG seemed really aware of the risks of powercreep, of ceding to player requests/demands. They were in control, and we trusted them with that control because their vision of a true hardcore ARPG was pretty damn clear. Dying to a white mob wasn't unusual. Dying to a unique was *common*. We only had FFA loot, so if you partied you'd better do it with someone you trust *or* be the first on the scene to get your goodies. The skill selection was pretty straight-forward but with supports, you could do some interesting (but rarely broken) things. You either fell in love with that immediately and thought that $10 for the closed beta key was the best investment you ever made in terms of entertainment, or you quit. We had no fucking namby-pamby BFG9000-all-day-erry-day playstyles back then, that's for sure.
But what we did have was desync. Which is interesting because if any version of PoE would encourage namby-pamby BFG9000-all-day-erry-day play, it'd be the one where you simply had no idea where your character actually was half the time and playing ranged was the smartest choice. I honestly, genuinely thought once GGG 'fixed' desync and embraced lockstep, the speed ranged meta would fall away. I believed that was the one true hindrance to PoE becoming THE greatest, most hardcore ARPG ever.
Fuck, I couldn't have been more wrong. Looking back, I feel like I was that person who tells themselves everything will be just fine *if*. I'm talking about magic bullets again, of course. But maybe by the time lockstep was implemented, the damage to the melee playstyle was done. I don't know. All I know is that lockstep didn't change a damn thing in GGG's design trajectory but for one glaring, ambitious-as-hell, contentious-as-fuck addition: The Lord's Labyrinth. There is no way they could have implemented that without lockstep. And how did people react? With the usual bitching that spikes, burning floors and spinning blades were forcing them to slow down.
I CANNOT imagine a melee fix, a real melee fix, that does not address the speed meta of PoE as detrimental. Equally, I cannot imagine the player base not losing its collective shit over any real, tangible attempts to slow things down across the board. Not now. And I do believe it would cost TencentGGG support money. And that is obviously not acceptable.
And so here we are, back at the same conclusion I always draw when I contemplate the state of this game: the health of the game took a back seat to the profitability a while back, and TencentGGG are to a significant degree held hostage by a playerbase who know the candy is bad for them but can't stop eating it anyway, who will cry bloody murder if it's taken away...but whom I can't blame, ultimately, because they weren't the ones to provide the candy in the first place. GGG caved. Plain and simple. It might have been once or twice, but that's all it takes. That is how powercreep sets in. THAT is how rot starts. But it keeps the peace and it keeps the support money flowing and in the end, that is what TencentGGG is about. A happy playerbase with open wallets. The harder way to achieve that, by challenging said playerbase but in an entertaining, rewarding way, was probably never a realistic thing to expect of a first-time developer. So we get the easier way: teasers of new power, new candy. When's the last time a teaser featured an incoming enemy or boss encounter beyond a flash of 'whoa, a dragon!'? It's *all* about how they can entice players to be excited for how strong and awesome they're going to be next time.
And when the hammer drops, that this power is the *least* of what the player's going to need to handle the new content, it's too late. Support packs are sold pre-release in a rush of hype for a reason.
Take all that into account and wonder: where does a real melee fix fit into *that*?
So I ask you: who the fuck would wait for the eagles to come when we can already fly perfectly well on our own?
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play a GMP/Volley fireball build I've been working on.
Well, the @ use is a sign of courtesy, but you're right I should always quote the relevant lines (although it's a PITA to manage on mobile "on the run"). Your participation is always welcomed, as your responses are more "articulate" and have more depth than the average, and many could learn something from them.
Now, let's not be coy about it, we all know that properly fixing melee would require a severe rework of the purpose and identity of all the 3 main playstyles: ranged, cast and melee, and we're not even talking about the balance issues.
As you aptly illustrated, TencentGGG face the dilemma of "do and die versus don't do and die a bit later". They could easily accept that most melee users in PoE simply want a bit more "parity" and/or a purpose for their favorite playstyle. And that is a $$$ maker instead.
If every playstyle is relegated to excel at one of the game aspects, with the proper investment, it shouldn't matter that ranged builds clear faster, casters have more options to deal direct and indirect damage, as melee users might endure point blank punishment and dish out respectable damage at their own turn.
"Buffing" melee to deal respectable, or even the highest damage (and I still highlight that melee will require investment into their equipment to do so, even more than ranged characters), would not make them clear faster than ranged builds or deal more damage than a long channeling skill (it seems TencentGGG team considers self cast as a focus for a "windup" type of damage boost to regular cast, and that is perfect, as casters should be vulnerable as they muster that "punch").
Having a portion of their playerbase interested in melee, even if it's perceived as an afterthought by the meta players, and an additional difficulty dial/challenge for the rest of APRGs veterans, should amount to "We DO need to MAKE REAL MELEE at least DECENT in a TIMELY MANNER" type of mentality at TencentGGG headquarters, as that would push a lot of us to further throw some more $$$ their way - yes, if they actually make "REAL MELEE" an "enjoyable experience" I will further consider to start throwing some more $$$ their way on a tad higher level supporter packs...
Regarding the "Labyrinth", if it would have been a more pleasant "mandatory" experience, like even a combination of Incursion temple + current "Labyrinth" layout (I still think it misses special "Ah, @#%&!!!" moments, more control regarding how to path through it, and it should be a special one of a kind run for each Ascendancy point gain, but we have to deal with the current status which will always mandate the encouragement of "speed above all" even with all the complaints), the final experience of that "journey" would have been a lot better, but that's just me...
Oh, and all of us would be in awe if TencentGGG would actually balance enemies (and especially bosses) to have to be dealt differently according to the playstyle and player's choices...
I don't mind supporting TencentGGG's view, even when it doesn't align with my own, but that doesn't mean I have to wait years and enjoy myself with something else, and then still be happy that they finally "succeeded" in resolving a perpetual conundrum (except on technical aspects where they got a pass until they became a well backed developer, instead of an indie one). As I always say, they need to "git gud & up to snuff" as anyone here is not getting younger, and certain things tend to lack appeal later down the line...
PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"...
Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days...
Last edited by sofocle10000#6408 on Mar 2, 2019, 1:41:04 AM
I have more concern than hope for the Melee patch in 3.7.
Honestly, I believe that GGG will not hate melee, but I'm sure that they does not interested to realize true melee action on PoE. I think that what they are aiming for is to make the usage rate of skills with Melee tag equal to anything else. For that, GGG may change all Melee skills to something like Ranged/Spell, with Melee tag.
If Melee were changed so, it is the death of Melee for me. It is never an improvement. In fact, all the recently added Melee skills, I think they are not Melee skills. What is hit by their skills is ground, not enemies. The weapon that melee build character has is for striking enemies, it is not for creating waves or projectiles.
I would rather do not revamp Melee than it is balanced by changing all Melee skills to some AoE/Projectile skill. Instead, I propose a very trivial amendment.
"To deal more damage to an enemy that was hit directly by single target Melee skill"
This does not affect the Melee Splash, Ancestral Call, and all of after secondary damage. And this is not by each skill, but by the game mechanics itself.
Damage increases only one enemy per attack, so the impact to game balance is very limited. This will not make Melee a popular skill, but will not lose melee action from the game.
BTW, I was playing Diablo3 before.
Expansion called RoS was released to Diablo3, and new skills were added to each class. Added to Barbarian who is Melee class was the "Avalanche". It is a skill that garbage with XXX% of weapon damage falls when use. I was disappointed that the highest level skill of Melee class is such thing.
