GGG on Balancing Melee

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RPGlitch wrote:

Wasn't the soulthirst jugg as fast or faster than most range builds? Or did they nerf that belt already?

I know it was a pretty niche, but danm was that thing was zooming once you got the charges going.

It doesn't even function outside of completely open maps because of the targeting problems with leap slam, and it gimps itself by being limited to a single (mana) flask, and was nerfed when stat sticks were nerfed because it relied on soul taker plus, you know, a stat stick

but sure, in theory the clearspeed could be pretty high still in a super-open map. 600% increased attack speed with leap slam is pretty good if you don't mind targeting your way into a full-clear, compared to just holding down left mouse button to run as a deadeye and occasionally pressing one button to fire off a volley that clears multiple screens at once.

If it comes to skill balance there is one basic thing to work on.

Multihit skills versus single hit skill - the first one have advetange on all fronts - better on hit effect, better lifesteal, better versus reflect, usualy better aoe and much better dmg due to overlaping nature of multi-hit skills

I prefer Consecrated Path comparing to Tectonic - teleport spamfest, can have good AOE (and around you not only front), have fast animation, give Consecrated Ground, is also single hit skill and have similar damage scaling and fire conversion

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codetaku wrote:

It doesn't even function outside of completely open maps because of the targeting problems with leap slam, and it gimps itself by being limited to a single (mana) flask, and was nerfed when stat sticks were nerfed because it relied on soul taker plus, you know, a stat stick

but sure, in theory the clearspeed could be pretty high still in a super-open map. 600% increased attack speed with leap slam is pretty good if you don't mind targeting your way into a full-clear, compared to just holding down left mouse button to run as a deadeye and occasionally pressing one button to fire off a volley that clears multiple screens at once.

Ah, well that's too bad. I was really looking forward to playing a non-squishy build that could clear screens without 100+ exalt investment, lol.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

If they give melee a "role", they have to take that role away from spells and range. They shouldn't have any style of play that excels at all aspects of the game. Once they did, they've worked themselves into a corner. You can't have a playstyle "viable" if there's another playstyle that is better than it in every aspect.

So what your saying is that Magic and Ranged should always be allowed to be jack of all trades master of all, while melee is to be relegated to the "whipping boy" of PoE, because it'd detract from the other two. Charming really.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

So what the "balance melee" crowd really wants is a game that's easy enough to beat no matter what you do. That's fine. Own that. And don't come back and complain that the game has become too easy once they "balance" it.

I don't. I just want melee to be a viable and fun choice make, just like Ranged and Magic are right now and with magic getting a big touch up in 3.6 it's rather jarring.

There will never be balance unless a major overhaul addresses a wide range of issues. I don't think the content of the last 3? leagues fit well on top of the original design.

In Baldur's Gate 2, there was this fine implementation of a AD&D system. It had quirks, but was a good implementation of what was refined and well thought out (especially considering it was designed for manual dice rolls). BG2 had the full implementation, and Throne of Bhaal had to top it. So in came the flashy powerhouse stuff designed by a different group of people. Had those people made another expansion, it would have their design further put on top (20 attack ww?).

Plus, developers create both the challenges and the solutions. If I look at the content that got added (syndicate) I can sort of see a pattern. The design of the syndicate members must have been fun, but for me it didn't come across as a good play experience. Entire screen full, blue adds often hit me harder than the map boss, very hard to follow and very spammy.

The solution would be to clear the screen. Spam that new frost/chill stuff. Hide around a corner till the brand did it. Tectonic Slam comes to mind. All these had some late attention or were new.


This still in system with mostly fixed tiers of difficulties.


I'm pretty sure they can make melee fun in 3.7, but balanced, no... balanced vs. what?


Cheers

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RPGlitch wrote:

Ah, well that's too bad. I was really looking forward to playing a non-squishy build that could clear screens without 100+ exalt investment, lol.

So, maybe I was unclear, but in theory, it *is* a viable clearspeed (NOT even remotely viable for bosskilling, ever) build. It's just, even in its prime, it took a huge amount of concentration via actually targeting packs in order to achieve its potential.

Deadeye is good because you hold left mouse button to "explore" the map and occasionally attack once. For every one of those clicks a deadeye has to do, the soulthirst soul taker juggernaut needs to click about 6 times, alternating between leap slam and a multistrike (thereby autotargeted) sunder or tecslam. It's still possible to play without 100ex investment, it just takes WAY more concentration than a "real clearspeed build" because specifically clicking to be within attack range of packs until there are no packs left is fucking exhausting when you're moving that fast. With a deadeye, it doesn't matter how fast they move because there's never going to be backtracking necessary to clear.

honestly, melee is in a bad spot. Nothing compares at all with being safe as a range/spell caster build.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Melee can't be fixed without making the other options less viable. That's a fact they have to deal with. So long as you can kill stuff safely from ranged or spell use, there's no reason at all to risk getting in close except for the feels of it. Know that. Fixing melee means removing the effectiveness of the alternatives.

exactly right.

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plasticeyes wrote:

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Melee can't be fixed without making the other options less viable. That's a fact they have to deal with. So long as you can kill stuff safely from ranged or spell use, there's no reason at all to risk getting in close except for the feels of it. Know that. Fixing melee means removing the effectiveness of the alternatives.

exactly right.

So melee should be left in the piss poor state it's in because other wise the magic and ranged users feel less special? Well good thing your not a developer then.

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AldarisGrave wrote:

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plasticeyes wrote:

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Shagsbeard wrote:

Melee can't be fixed without making the other options less viable. That's a fact they have to deal with. So long as you can kill stuff safely from ranged or spell use, there's no reason at all to risk getting in close except for the feels of it. Know that. Fixing melee means removing the effectiveness of the alternatives.

exactly right.

So melee should be left in the piss poor state it's in because other wise the magic and ranged users feel less special? Well good thing your not a developer then.

Err...I think he was suggesting the opposite - that ranged and spellcasters need to be made less effective while buffing melee or else it simply won't be enough to make up for the far greater risk and longer time to kill i.e. less clearspeed (both due to needing to close in on your target) you're running. Their point seems to be that buffing melee won't cut it - that melee has a fundamental and inherent disadvantage (having to get in close) to killing from range and hence range needs to have its own disadvantages (most likely much less damage, since distance is already an automatic buff to defense and speed) in order to make melee competitive.