Anybody else worried about the amount of automation that PoE is getting ?

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Fruz wrote:

The number of potential combination isn't really what's relevant though, the amount of 'realistic' combinations that players are actually using is more relevant regarding diversity imho.

Using that gem, and not using it, are both realistic options available to any player that wishes to take them.

Pretty counterproductive to limit your view to "racers" when discussing diversity, surely? Bit like only examining athletes and coming away with the idea that lycra is overrepresented in work clothing. That crowd is voluntarily (as in, Path of Exile itself sets you no goal to get through it as fast as possible) choosing one specific goal to optimise for. It is only natural that they will have a less diverse set of builds, with higher concentrations of whatever gems/passives/gear happen to be more useful to achieving their chosen goals - in this case, I'm not surprised that a playstyle where you always want to be on the move might find useful a gem that lets you move while still attacking. There will always be some combinations that are "better" than others for racers, just like there are some combinations that are "better" than others for hardcore. That's inescapable. But the rest of us not only don't have to be part of those sub-communities, we also don't have to care about "better" in the first place.

I would also note that this is hardly the first kind of gem to see significant use among particular groups of players. Vicious Projectiles no doubt sees a lot of use among archers too, and you won't find many elemental attack builds not using Elemental Damage with Attacks, etc etc. The question of whether skill gems should each increase "diversity" (however we might define and measure that) is quite a separate notion from your distaste for "automation" skills, and I think compressing the two and demanding that these gems, specifically, must improve diversity is a bit disingenuous.

Am I forced to use those automated feeling skills? No? Then no, not really worried.

I can do what I wanna do, be it more active or more automated. If other people wanna get drawn into lazymode stuff, whatever, let them. As long as it doesn't warp the balance of content it doesn't really matter much.

The game pretty much needs this type of option because people who play on slower machines can't play twitchy builds as efficiently. Some people rely on self-targeting or AOE skills because targeting is simply not going to work for them.

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鬼殺し wrote:

I'll elaborate slightly: if you weren't worried about future PoE play automation when support totems were introduced, or when trigger gems were introduced, or when trigger items such as Mjolner and PP were introduced...you sure as heck are late to the party worrying about it now.

It was somewhat worrying of course.

I actually forgot to mention pizza totems in the OP, this was one of the most stupidly powerful combination back then, and how it lasted so long is mind blowing ( and it's probably still very strong obviously ).

Still, totems do have some limitations, even though those are a joke now if you play certain ascendancies I guess.
Poet's Pen is obviously too strong at the moment, hopefully it's getting somewhat adjusted soon.

Mjolner ? I don't really have a problem since it was not something easy to get, and it was still requiring you to hit the target to begin with.
Good CoC builds were mst of the times expensive, not that easy to put together and did requires a certain amount of input from the player anyway.


GGG is about to push it to quite a different level imho, and I find that more worrying.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

[...]

I don't see this going anywhere, so before we end up agreeing to disagree :
- Yes, top players who know the game very well are a pretty reliable source when it comes to what is good and isn't ( your Lycra analogy is irrelevant here, I was not showing what people in general use )
- This gem does not really fill a specific purpose, it just seem to be good for most achers builds and that's it. Ele dmg with attacks ? for elemental attacks, it's a kind of 'vanilla' support that fits its purpose. Vicious projectile ? same. I would personally not play mirage archers as I find the concept very dumb and over the top ( not just literally ).

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Shppy wrote:

Am I forced to use those automated feeling skills? No? Then no, not really worried.

I can do what I wanna do, be it more active or more automated. If other people wanna get drawn into lazymode stuff, whatever, let them. As long as it doesn't warp the balance of content it doesn't really matter much.

Pretty much everything eventually has an impact on the balance of the game.

Should we just ignore stat sticks because you don't have to use them ?
Of course not.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

The game pretty much needs this type of option because people who play on slower machines can't play twitchy builds as efficiently. Some people rely on self-targeting or AOE skills because targeting is simply not going to work for them.

Oh please, let's stop this nonsense already, I have aything but a new super-powerful computer, and I seldom have problem running PoE anymore, and I'm playing a build with quie a lot of particles atm.

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Fruz wrote:

I don't see this going anywhere, so before we end up agreeing to disagree :
- Yes, top players who know the game very well are a pretty reliable source when it comes to what is good and isn't

Yes, that's not been in question. I've made no claim about whether this, or other gems, are or aren't "good", or that racers don't know what's good for their kind of play. My point is that "good" is contextual. The goals of one group of players are not the sole way in which the game need be played and thus evaluated. You say yourself you "never go meta" because you find it boring. You understand this. The rest of us are not limited by what racers like to use.

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Fruz wrote:

( your Lycra analogy is irrelevant here, I was not showing what people in general use )

Right, you weren't, we agree on that. You have some messaging issues here, is the problem. If you intentionally ignoring the broad diversity/variety of the game in general in favour of one specific sector, then there's no point claiming to be concerned about the diversity of the game, because that's not what you're getting a picture of and it's not how you're measuring 'success'. If you're only looking at racers, and you're only measuring success by what racers do, then by definition you're concerned, specifically, about racers. So say that up front, that's fine, that's a valid discussion! Instead, you opened the thread asking about "what all (or at least most) players prefer", which gave the impression that actually, you were intending to discuss "what people in general use".

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Fruz wrote:

This gem does not really fill a specific purpose, it just seem to be good for most achers builds and that's it. Ele dmg with attacks ? for elemental attacks, it's a kind of 'vanilla' support that fits its purpose.

So how is that different? Doesn't "vanilla" in this context basically mean "good for most <X> builds"? It's just that in one case X is "archer", in another case it's "elemental attacker", it's the same thing. Another X might be "ailment using" or "AOE skill" whatever. Pointing out that gems are useful for certain arbitrary categories of builds isn't a problem with them, it's the very nature of support gems.

It's fine that you think the gem feels dumb and over the top! Nobody's asking you to use it or like it. There are a bunch of gems I don't like, too, but that's okay, other people do. They're all just options, there for those who are interested in them.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

I don't see this going anywhere, so before we end up agreeing to disagree :
- Yes, top players who know the game very well are a pretty reliable source when it comes to what is good and isn't

Yes, that's not been in question. I've made no claim about whether this, or other gems, are or aren't "good", or that racers don't know what's good for their kind of play. My point is that "good" is contextual. The goals of one group of players are not the sole way in which the game need be played and thus evaluated. You say yourself you "never go meta" because you find it boring. You understand this. The rest of us are not limited by what racers like to use.

Of course not, but the game is getting changed by those new things, the economy is going to get impacted ( for those who play trade-leagues ), and you can be sure that balance will be impacted eventually.

Regarding diversity, for the sake of the example, should we just say that 1H shaper/elder touched weapons that give one extra support are good for the diversity of the game because they allow somebody to run ... let's say a 4L 1H setup with dual strike ?
If theory is your only concern ... I guess, but we know that it's not something players will really play because there are too many other better options, and that the high-life bosses requiring more dps is pushing ( or requiring to some extent ) players to play optimized setups, which is not bad itself.
It is not bad, but it means that not all possible combinations are realistic choices and participates to build diversity.

Top players are only picking the top things usually.
There are so many different setups that are great, or good, or even correct.
And there are even more that are not "viable enough" ( which is not necessarily bad on its own, it's only bad when some skills/gems seem to just fall in this category only, imho ).


And yes, I do find that 'archers' is too broad to have the game being healthy if some support gems are just purely 'go-to' things for it.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

It's fine that you think the gem feels dumb and over the top! Nobody's asking you to use it or like it. There are a bunch of gems I don't like, too, but that's okay, other people do. They're all just options, there for those who are interested in them.

No, this is not the case.
If you just consider that everything that can be used is "just an option" and it's fine that way, however good/bad/useful it is, why have a conversation regarding balance to begin with ??

The only good thing about all the automation is it saves my hands/wrists. Not gonna lie, playing an RF build was by far the most "healthy" build I've ever played in an Arpg. Zero mouseclicks outside of looting. It was sad, yet enjoyable at the same time.

I don't think I've ever found a shaper/elder item that's been useful to a build I'm playing that league, so I've no intention on commenting on them.

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Fruz wrote:

And yes, I do find that 'archers' is too broad to have the game being healthy if some support gems are just purely 'go-to' things for it.

Sure, that's understandable. I mean personally I suspect "elemental attack builds" (something you're okay having a go-to gem) could arguably be a broader category than "archers", but I do understand the feeling, and have expressed similar at various times in the past. But there's different approaches to be taken about that too.

For example, you'll probably find most archers use Blink Arrow. It's basically an auto-pick; the only other movement skills available are, I think, Flame Dash and Lightning Warp, and they'll both be slower for attack builds, generally. Is that a problem? Yeah, sort of! Perhaps not a severe problem, but auto-picks aren't exactly interesting choices, that's what we're talking about here. Importantly though, it doesn't mean that Blink Arrow itself is the problem.

I mean you can choose to think of it that way - you could remove Blink Arrow, or slow it down to the point where people start selecting other movement skills instead. That's certainly one approach. But personally I prefer the approach of declaring that the problem is that Blink Arrow doesn't have good alternatives for that kind of build, and so creating more alternatives. Gem slots are the one resource that all active and support gems are competing for. So make them compete. Make more options.

That doesn't preclude making some balance adjustments in the meantime, of course, just, I think it's valuable to keep in mind that identifying a balance concern centred around Blink Arrow does not imply there's something fundamentally problematic about the kind of mechanics Blink Arrow employs, regardless of whether any individuals find it dumb or over the top. Not to mock, just making the connection explicit.

What I would be worried about is a development outlook that viewed the creation of a bunch of abilities people clearly like using as a failure - that to me would signal a game in danger of stagnation, held prisoner by its gatekeeping conservative elite. This isn't a failure, it's a success. Build on that with further success - more gems that people also like using, competing for their attention. More "automated" skills, more precise, self-directed instant skills, and the whole spectrum in between (after all, automation is a matter of degree - when I cast Vortex, or even fire an arrow, I am setting up a zone that will damage enemies in the future without further intervention on my part).

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Fruz wrote:

No, this is not the case.
If you just consider that everything that can be used is "just an option" and it's fine that way, however good/bad/useful it is, why have a conversation regarding balance to begin with ??

Sure. I wasn't making the statement "the game contains no balance problems", rather "other players (high-end or otherwise) using skills I don't like is not, in itself, a balance problem". I think we should keep separate the concerns about "some skills are overrepresented in their use" and this stuff about being worried about the concept of automation.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

For example, you'll probably find most archers use Blink Arrow. It's basically an auto-pick; the only other movement skills available are, I think, Flame Dash and Lightning Warp, and they'll both be slower for attack builds, generally. Is that a problem? Yeah, sort of! Perhaps not a severe problem, but auto-picks aren't exactly interesting choices, that's what we're talking about here. Importantly though, it doesn't mean that Blink Arrow itself is the problem.

We do agree there.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

ure. I wasn't making the statement "the game contains no balance problems", rather "other players (high-end or otherwise) using skills I don't like is not, in itself, a balance problem". I think we should keep separate the concerns about "some skills are overrepresented in their use" and this stuff about being worried about the concept of automation.

I am not implying that skills that I don't like are a problem of course.

I don't really like multistrike because it just makes my char look quite silly usually, to a level that I don't really enjoy, for example.
But In no way I think this is a bad gem or anything.

In the case of mirage archer, I think that the fact that it is automated does also optimize it as a dps support, to a certain extent, which is partly what makes it good, imho.

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鬼殺し wrote:

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Destructodave wrote:

The only good thing about all the automation is it saves my hands/wrists. Not gonna lie, playing an RF build was by far the most "healthy" build I've ever played in an Arpg. Zero mouseclicks outside of looting. It was sad, yet enjoyable at the same time.

My most passive build this league, a full counter-attack Gladiator, is also a nice break from the micro-management and twitchiness. Also, REALLY good for delving since all I have to do is watch the minimap. Spotted many more fractured walls with him than any other character.

So it's not as if I'm violently opposed to where PoE lets us go in terms of automation and laziness. I wish things were otherwise but I'm not going to deny myself options as long as the end result is something I can enjoy and be proud of.

Especially good for delving it indeed seems, but you won't speed clear any maps or outdoor areas with it for example, without using some skills on your own.
reactive skills on block/hit etc ... also do have a cooldown, it's not as silly as RF in the current state of the game for example.

I find that archetype pretty fun personally, and it can be quite fun.

In my view the problem is not automation, but the lack of decision-making required in determining to use an ability in real-time.

For example, flasks are the pinnacle of non-automation; you need to constant hit the key to keep their buffs up. However, despite them being not automated, there is rarely any decision-making that goes into when to drink them because flask charge issues are so heavily mitigated in this game by very high kill speeds. Some big boss fights are notable exceptions, of course.

Movement skills by contrast are perfect. They are snappy, spammable, yet the player decides when to use them based on the situation. You can use them to dash through a pack, cross long empty spaces, avoid dangerous bosses, kite enemies, etc. They are versatile yet fully based on player decisions.

I'd like to see more of this. The new Focus skill seems to be on the right path. I wish they'd add some more active defense skills (instant cast, preferably) asw well.