[3.12] Crimson Bow Gladiator, RoA + Puncture | Pure Bleed Build | All Content | In-depth

"
ChiefShonahh wrote:
Spoiler
That's great news, the only other question I have is you state that it's not advised to use split arrow. Do you mind elaborating and why you recommend RoA over split arrow? Split arrow has always been one of my favorite skills in the game and I'm curious how big of a hit I'm gonna take on my clear if I choose to go with split arrow instead.

"
Inkaflare wrote:
Spoiler
Having tried both, I really really prefer Split Arrow too. Clears faster, easier to use, less delay before shit dies, damage loss through needing pierce/chain is inconsequential for clear.
One advantage of RoA is easier Frenzy upkeep on bosses in blood stance.

Ultimately it's a pure preference thing, I guess.

Full breakdown of what RoA bring to table:
* RoA deals less damage than SA (Split Arrow), but can hit enemy multiple times which results in not big of a difference compared to SA. Keep in mind that SA needs Pierce gem to clear well which makes it lose some damage.
* Vaal RoA deals higher damage than SA, is relatively spammable and has huge utility value.
* RoA hits multiple times so it's less prone to bad RNG streaks. Maps with chance to avoid damaging ailments are one of the examples.
* If using classic build, it means you'll be using Crimson Dance as well which makes it A MUST to have multiple hits.

* More reliable leeching compared to SA. I saw many people who used SA and asked for help here, and plenty of them had mana flask in their setup. Ever wondered why?
* You actually see where you're shooting. SA projectiles are so thin they're literally invisible to me.
* Easier targetting enemies who somehow got close to you. Just shoot above yourself.
* Great for any map layout.


Now what Split Arrow has to offer:
* Higher base damage and potential over longer period of time. But then again it's a clear skill, not really used for bossing. Outclassed by Vaal RoA damage-wise.
* Slightly faster animation + arrow speed, which equals to enemies dying faster (RoA can mitigate this with Attack + Projectile Speed).
* Off-screen potential, so should have better clear in open layout maps.


Yes, that's about it. SA is just damage. RoA is versatility.

"
Thinking about choosing a 2nd build to play (my TR/CA trickster is 96 and clears all content easy)
How does this build stack up in end game clear/bossing?

You can see for yourself by looking at videos, and that's all without cluster jewels and ridiculous items you can easily create this league. Both clear and bossing is good.
/view-thread/2077932 - [HC] Caustic Arrow Raider, DoT Focused | 6k+ Health | All Content | In-depth
/view-thread/2247655 - Crimson Bow Gladiator, RoA + Puncture | Pure Bleed Build
Seeing as Harvest runs like a complete turd on XB, I decided to give this bild a try on XB standard, and I love it. So, thank you for the guide.

Not spent too much on him tbh as my usual character follows the Aquarism IS builds, so I had some gear in my tabs to help.
This build feel much stronger than IS (juiced T16's and A8 conquers drop easy enough), plus so far seems to be better HP wise too.

I was wondering what the best Unique bow is for the build though, I'm currently using 6L legacy Arborix for the high dps, but I seriously hate the playstyle it forces due to Iron Reflexes (?)

I have a bow I'm working on for crafting, but lets just say that rng is not in my favor right now, and the XB market is beyond slim pickings (not a single 60% bleed chance bow for sale)
Hey, how important is life leech?
"
DankawSL wrote:


Full breakdown of what RoA bring to table:
* RoA deals less damage than SA (Split Arrow), but can hit enemy multiple times which results in not big of a difference compared to SA. Keep in mind that SA needs Pierce gem to clear well which makes it lose some damage.
* Vaal RoA deals higher damage than SA, is relatively spammable and has huge utility value.
* RoA hits multiple times so it's less prone to bad RNG streaks. Maps with chance to avoid damaging ailments are one of the examples.
* If using classic build, it means you'll be using Crimson Dance as well which makes it A MUST to have multiple hits.

* More reliable leeching compared to SA. I saw many people who used SA and asked for help here, and plenty of them had mana flask in their setup. Ever wondered why?
* You actually see where you're shooting. SA projectiles are so thin they're literally invisible to me.
* Easier targetting enemies who somehow got close to you. Just shoot above yourself.
* Great for any map layout.


Now what Split Arrow has to offer:
* Higher base damage and potential over longer period of time. But then again it's a clear skill, not really used for bossing. Outclassed by Vaal RoA damage-wise.
* Slightly faster animation + arrow speed, which equals to enemies dying faster (RoA can mitigate this with Attack + Projectile Speed).
* Off-screen potential, so should have better clear in open layout maps.


Yes, that's about it. SA is just damage. RoA is versatility.


firstly, thank you for the build. it's one of the best ive read and one of the nicest builds i've played. Although im playing an armour version, i believe your version is better in alot of ways and is certainly easier to get rolling and takes you through all the content the game has to offer. I've always hated the idea of playing bow builds but this build is an absolute JOY to play.

secondly, ive read through your comparisons between RoA and split arrow and i feel that it's a little biased against split arrow. you clearly lean towards RoA for above stated reasons, most of which i agree, but i think there are a few things worth pointing out.

-Your very first point regarding ROA 'advantage' is just a round about way of saying it may or may not do more dmg.. this is a non-point and i would not count this as a benefit

- Vaal RoA is godlike. this i agree fully. It is to me the biggest reason why i choose RoA over split arrow. its just so frickin good.

- regarding hitting multiple times for leech and to partially circumvent the 'avoid bleeding' map mod is also a huge QoL and cannot be ignored. using split arrow for the enemies avoid bleeding map mod feels very very bad.

-the last 2 points is highly debatable and I would consider these entirely subjective and personal preference. i prefer the invisi arrows and i hate the way RoA looks, with or without mtx. i recognize this is purely personal preference. the 'easier to aim' part i dont quite understand either, but i'll leave it at that.

with regards to the positives of split arrow. the off-screen potential is huge and i think you're doing it an unfair disservice dismissing it as 'just more dmg'. To me it is the one biggest reason why split arrow can feel great. RoA might have numerically more advantages but this ONE thing about split arrow is HUGE. this also classifies as utility and is not 'just more dmg'.

Also saying RoA's comparitive slowness can be trumped by just getting more speed is also kinda moot? if u get more speed, split arrow will also shoot/animation cancel quicker.

i realise this is a veritable essay in response to an almost non-issue of Split arrow vs RoA. I hope i havent been too wordy or confrontational. This is my attempt at addresing what i feel was a biased comparison between two very good skills.
Hello

Going to try this build out on hardcore. However i am having difficulty with 6 links.
I have currency just not enough to buy 1 that is ready.
Would love to buy elder 6 link and craft myself. However they arent for sale. I can buy 1 and try 6 linking. But 6 linking for me is a myth. Never done 1 and feel alike a gamble. Could spend 6 ex and still dont get it...
nice one
"
DankawSL wrote:
Spoiler

Full breakdown of what RoA bring to table:
* RoA deals less damage than SA (Split Arrow), but can hit enemy multiple times which results in not big of a difference compared to SA. Keep in mind that SA needs Pierce gem to clear well which makes it lose some damage.
* Vaal RoA deals higher damage than SA, is relatively spammable and has huge utility value.
* RoA hits multiple times so it's less prone to bad RNG streaks. Maps with chance to avoid damaging ailments are one of the examples.
* If using classic build, it means you'll be using Crimson Dance as well which makes it A MUST to have multiple hits.

* More reliable leeching compared to SA. I saw many people who used SA and asked for help here, and plenty of them had mana flask in their setup. Ever wondered why?
* You actually see where you're shooting. SA projectiles are so thin they're literally invisible to me.
* Easier targetting enemies who somehow got close to you. Just shoot above yourself.
* Great for any map layout.


Now what Split Arrow has to offer:
* Higher base damage and potential over longer period of time. But then again it's a clear skill, not really used for bossing. Outclassed by Vaal RoA damage-wise.
* Slightly faster animation + arrow speed, which equals to enemies dying faster (RoA can mitigate this with Attack + Projectile Speed).
* Off-screen potential, so should have better clear in open layout maps.


Yes, that's about it. SA is just damage. RoA is versatility.

"
Thinking about choosing a 2nd build to play (my TR/CA trickster is 96 and clears all content easy)
How does this build stack up in end game clear/bossing?

You can see for yourself by looking at videos, and that's all without cluster jewels and ridiculous items you can easily create this league. Both clear and bossing is good.


While I agree with some of your points infavor of RoA, you're also glossing over some stuff that SA has over RoA.
Disclaimer here that I'm not using Crimson Dance. If I was, RoA would win hands down.
-RoA hitting multiple times does not mean you deal more damage, as your hits don't do anything when the enemy is already bleeding (without Crimson dance!), aside from potentially applying a higher bleed when the first roll was low. This means that overall it doesn't deal more damage. It deals less damage but is more consistent.
-Personally I have never had any issues with mana leech on my Split Arrow. Literally the only reasons I use a mana flask is because I can't be arsed to swap flasks when I roll a no regen map, and because it allows me to be more lenient with charging up my Snipe on a boss coming in (so I don't run out of mana and release the arrow before the boss becomes targetable). Against a proper endgame fight I'd use a better flask. It's just QoL for mapping sessions as is.
-the easier targeting point is like... what? Just shoot at the enemy in front of you. It's not like that's any harder than shooting above yourself.
-you gravely underestimate SA's offscreen potential. I am killing packs 2 screens away with a single tap thanks to chain. RoA is literally incapable of that. Layout doesn't change much about this as chaining SAs can fly around corners too.

Points in favor for RoA for sure are the higher consistency for "avoid bleed" maps, Vaal RoA being incredibly useful, and in case you use Crimson Dance, it's basically mandatory over SA or else your clear will suck.

Overall I stand by my opinion that it's entirely a preference thing and unless you use Crimson Dance, there is no clear winner. Personally I prefer split arrow because the offscreen potential is worth more to me than being able to more easily deal with that one map mod. Damage is inconsequential for both as packs die instantly and rares get Punctured anyway. I am levelling a Vaal RoA in my weapon swap just so I have the option to swap at will though, which is convenient for when one of these maps comes up.
Some questions. Isee the discussion over sa and roa. While im not saying they are right, but if 99% of the ppl on poe.ninja is using sa it must mean something tbh.
Also i see that not much ppl use crimson dance. What is so good about it and why arent much ppl using it?
"
Stilgarr wrote:
Spoiler
Seeing as Harvest runs like a complete turd on XB, I decided to give this bild a try on XB standard, and I love it. So, thank you for the guide.

Not spent too much on him tbh as my usual character follows the Aquarism IS builds, so I had some gear in my tabs to help.
This build feel much stronger than IS (juiced T16's and A8 conquers drop easy enough), plus so far seems to be better HP wise too.

I was wondering what the best Unique bow is for the build though, I'm currently using 6L legacy Arborix for the high dps, but I seriously hate the playstyle it forces due to Iron Reflexes (?)

I have a bow I'm working on for crafting, but lets just say that rng is not in my favor right now, and the XB market is beyond slim pickings (not a single 60% bleed chance bow for sale)

Lioneye's Glare or Reach of the Council are the best. For RotC, you would socket Puncture in there for easier targetting.

Elder bleed bow isn't absolutely necessary to progress to the end game. However you should quickly get other gear pieces ready, which is annointed amulet and Ryslatha's Coil.

"
bernardooooo wrote:
Hey, how important is life leech?

Not too much but it's still good to have against bosses or to heal up small hits. Blood Rage should be enough for the most part.

"
ciggaro wrote:
Spoiler
firstly, thank you for the build. it's one of the best ive read and one of the nicest builds i've played. Although im playing an armour version, i believe your version is better in alot of ways and is certainly easier to get rolling and takes you through all the content the game has to offer. I've always hated the idea of playing bow builds but this build is an absolute JOY to play.

secondly, ive read through your comparisons between RoA and split arrow and i feel that it's a little biased against split arrow. you clearly lean towards RoA for above stated reasons, most of which i agree, but i think there are a few things worth pointing out.

-Your very first point regarding ROA 'advantage' is just a round about way of saying it may or may not do more dmg.. this is a non-point and i would not count this as a benefit

- Vaal RoA is godlike. this i agree fully. It is to me the biggest reason why i choose RoA over split arrow. its just so frickin good.

- regarding hitting multiple times for leech and to partially circumvent the 'avoid bleeding' map mod is also a huge QoL and cannot be ignored. using split arrow for the enemies avoid bleeding map mod feels very very bad.

-the last 2 points is highly debatable and I would consider these entirely subjective and personal preference. i prefer the invisi arrows and i hate the way RoA looks, with or without mtx. i recognize this is purely personal preference. the 'easier to aim' part i dont quite understand either, but i'll leave it at that.

with regards to the positives of split arrow. the off-screen potential is huge and i think you're doing it an unfair disservice dismissing it as 'just more dmg'. To me it is the one biggest reason why split arrow can feel great. RoA might have numerically more advantages but this ONE thing about split arrow is HUGE. this also classifies as utility and is not 'just more dmg'.

Also saying RoA's comparitive slowness can be trumped by just getting more speed is also kinda moot? if u get more speed, split arrow will also shoot/animation cancel quicker.

i realise this is a veritable essay in response to an almost non-issue of Split arrow vs RoA. I hope i havent been too wordy or confrontational. This is my attempt at addresing what i feel was a biased comparison between two very good skills.

It's no secret i really dislike Split Arrow for this build. Ever since the visual changes and switching to non-RT version of the build i can't use it anymore. This is something i forgot to add, SA without Resolute Technique feels significantly worse to use since you have only 1 chance to hit an enemy when RoA has multiple.

Even tho it's somewhat biased, most of the points still stand strong:

* First bullet point isn't advantage. It was mostly to point out where RoA lies damage wise compared to Split Arrow, i had to include it somewhere. I can easily sum up that point in "RoA deals less damage than Split Arrow, but the difference isn't as big as it seems to be". This is especially true the higher damage you have.

* Visual part - even tho it might be preference i refuse to accept it as such. If you fire a skill it's a good idea to know where arrows actually land. That way it's easier to know where to shoot next even before arrows land. Without visuals all you rely on is enemy feedback (them dying) and how experienced you are with the game and skill itself. Again, it's easier to learn when you actually see what's going on.

* Close range part - think of SA as a cone. In awful layouts like cells or so where there are enemies right around corner, you might be so close to the pack that not all enemies will fit into that cone around edges. It's much harder to attack enemies in close range with skills like that. You have to be more precise. It also applies to enemies who jump/teleport a lot or shroud walker etc. It's a minor thing.

* Mitigating RoA disadvantage with projectile/attack speed - It's easy to explain. Let's say you have skill A that hits enemy after 1 second and skill B that hits enemy after 2 seconds. Now you invest so you cut that time in half. Skill A hits enemy after 0,5 sec and skill B after 1 second. Should be easy to apply it to SA/RoA part. It's worth mentioning this isn't too big a difference from what i recall.

* You are right i undersold off-screen potential. After all it's the only real advantage SA has other than damage.


It's really hard to think of more advantages to SA. For the longest time multiple hits and hitting quickly were always better.

"
Inkaflare wrote:
Spoiler
While I agree with some of your points infavor of RoA, you're also glossing over some stuff that SA has over RoA.
Disclaimer here that I'm not using Crimson Dance. If I was, RoA would win hands down.
-RoA hitting multiple times does not mean you deal more damage, as your hits don't do anything when the enemy is already bleeding (without Crimson dance!), aside from potentially applying a higher bleed when the first roll was low. This means that overall it doesn't deal more damage. It deals less damage but is more consistent.
-Personally I have never had any issues with mana leech on my Split Arrow. Literally the only reasons I use a mana flask is because I can't be arsed to swap flasks when I roll a no regen map, and because it allows me to be more lenient with charging up my Snipe on a boss coming in (so I don't run out of mana and release the arrow before the boss becomes targetable). Against a proper endgame fight I'd use a better flask. It's just QoL for mapping sessions as is.
-the easier targeting point is like... what? Just shoot at the enemy in front of you. It's not like that's any harder than shooting above yourself.
-you gravely underestimate SA's offscreen potential. I am killing packs 2 screens away with a single tap thanks to chain. RoA is literally incapable of that. Layout doesn't change much about this as chaining SAs can fly around corners too.

Points in favor for RoA for sure are the higher consistency for "avoid bleed" maps, Vaal RoA being incredibly useful, and in case you use Crimson Dance, it's basically mandatory over SA or else your clear will suck.

Overall I stand by my opinion that it's entirely a preference thing and unless you use Crimson Dance, there is no clear winner. Personally I prefer split arrow because the offscreen potential is worth more to me than being able to more easily deal with that one map mod. Damage is inconsequential for both as packs die instantly and rares get Punctured anyway. I am levelling a Vaal RoA in my weapon swap just so I have the option to swap at will though, which is convenient for when one of these maps comes up.

I played SA, i tried it out MANY times, pierce and chain. I really did, and i still stand by what i said.

* Your first point is objectively incorrect. You're forgetting about modifiers that increase damage on enemies who are bleeding/maimed, they cannot trigger on your first hit. Guaranteed maim from Gladiator ascedancy is only against bleeding enemies + RoA has Maim support as a 6th link on top. More hits does equal more damage PRECISELY because you even out the odds. 2 hits will deal higher damage on average than 1 hit, because there's more chances of getting high phys roll + 100% damage mod proc. It does not too much for pack clearing (that's why i said SA still deals more damage over longer periods of time), but still has an impact.

* Mana leech issue wasn't my idea. People who used bleed bow version of their favorite streamer often had that problem. I kept seeing that mana flask at 70-90 levels even tho there's almost no reason to ever use it. You might have a reason, but not everyone.

* Targetting problem, i mentioned it in earlier in this reply to someone else.

* I remember off-screening and most of the time i killed half of the pack and had to shoot it again anyway. I undersold it, that's true. It's still faster in open maps and prolly better if you want to clear super fast with Awakened Chain/Fork or both. My experiences with off-screening at medium investment weren't the greatest tho. I tested chaining in closed maps was more or less the same as using Pierce, maybe slightly more reliable. I mentioned it somewhere back in this thread.


We can keep up this discussion but it's pointless to do so. If we agree that it's preference based (because it is to a great degree), then we agree this is a battle of opinions and personal feelings. It never ends well if you drag it too long, never. I shared what i had, don't think i have much else to say. What you do with this information is up to you.

"
Cheydinhal wrote:
Spoiler
Hello

Going to try this build out on hardcore. However i am having difficulty with 6 links.
I have currency just not enough to buy 1 that is ready.
Would love to buy elder 6 link and craft myself. However they arent for sale. I can buy 1 and try 6 linking. But 6 linking for me is a myth. Never done 1 and feel alike a gamble. Could spend 6 ex and still dont get it...

I also spend 2000 fuses on ~45% quality bow without 6-link... god damn it.

You can try buying up 6-link Imperial Bows and add influence to them. 1 in 6 chance that you succeed, and if anything you can sell it for a divine later.

Keep in mind that you don't NEED elder bleed bow for a long time. Back in 3.9 i did all end game content without actually having one. Not the highest dps that's for sure but i managed anyway.

To answer your question from PM - no, evasion doesn't suck in hardcore. You need life pool / mitigation to make use of avoidance reliably. It obviously requires some investment, but there shouldn't be any survivability issues until red maps. Then again i'm also used to playing these builds so i rarely have any issues.

I finished all end game in softcore trade league back in 3.9, SSF until red maps to speed up progression a bit. Didn't use it in HC recently but i plan to.

"
Cheydinhal wrote:
Spoiler
Some questions. Isee the discussion over sa and roa. While im not saying they are right, but if 99% of the ppl on poe.ninja is using sa it must mean something tbh.
Also i see that not much ppl use crimson dance. What is so good about it and why arent much ppl using it?

Check HC, then you'll see 99% of people using RoA. Because something is popular does not mean it's actually best. People told me bleed is unplayable back in 3.4-3.6 leagues. That bleed is incapable of dealing large enough damage to be main source of damage and that was the popular opinion. Meanwhile i very much enjoyed my bow bleed build, that's also when i created this guide. Keep that in mind.

Currently there's no reason to use Crimson Dance over Standard Bleed. I only use it in classic build where i make use of both bleed types.
/view-thread/2077932 - [HC] Caustic Arrow Raider, DoT Focused | 6k+ Health | All Content | In-depth
/view-thread/2247655 - Crimson Bow Gladiator, RoA + Puncture | Pure Bleed Build
Last edited by DankawSL on Jul 23, 2020, 5:37:24 PM
"
DankawSL wrote:
"
Stilgarr wrote:
Spoiler
Seeing as Harvest runs like a complete turd on XB, I decided to give this bild a try on XB standard, and I love it. So, thank you for the guide.

Not spent too much on him tbh as my usual character follows the Aquarism IS builds, so I had some gear in my tabs to help.
This build feel much stronger than IS (juiced T16's and A8 conquers drop easy enough), plus so far seems to be better HP wise too.

I was wondering what the best Unique bow is for the build though, I'm currently using 6L legacy Arborix for the high dps, but I seriously hate the playstyle it forces due to Iron Reflexes (?)

I have a bow I'm working on for crafting, but lets just say that rng is not in my favor right now, and the XB market is beyond slim pickings (not a single 60% bleed chance bow for sale)

Lioneye's Glare or Reach of the Council are the best. For RotC, you would socket Puncture in there for easier targetting.

Elder bleed bow isn't absolutely necessary to progress to the end game. However you should quickly get other gear pieces ready, which is annointed amulet and Ryslatha's Coil.



Thanks for the reply m8.

Managed to finally craft the bow with +129% and 40+ phys too, so I'm over the moon there ( suffix's suck but oh well)

Managed to pick up the Coil for 4ex a while back which is a huge steal on the XB market, things are beyond insane priced atm.

Anoint is sorted too so now just a case of getting my Res balanced as I'm way over the cold cap.

Accidentally went for Sirus A8 on the char, and did surprisingly ok, for 5k hp and an Arborix. Ofc thanks to XB performance I lost 4 portals to random freeze etc, but looking forward to the improvements in gear.

Again, thanks for this guide, definitely one of the best out there.

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