for everyone who wants a challange

"

Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

I think it's safe to say #2 is not an ideal expectation of player behavior. If the player looks at something like a reflect mod and finds its 4% pack size increase is completely outweighed by its significant mortality increase for their build then that mod is not at all worth the risk. It's one example but it certainly illustrates how certain mods end up being so binary.

except that it's only binary for some.

many builds scoff at reflect - such as trappers, summoners, totems, etc.

and many really don't care much, one way or the other. generally more balanced builds (block, various mitigations, etc).

even for those who won't run reflect maps, it merely gives them a decision to make - to reroll, trade, or other (vendor, leave it in a tab forever).

although, if this thread has taught me anything, it's that players do not want to think or make decisions at all. haha. it's actually the underlying theme of the thread...

"

robmafia wrote:

except that it's only binary for some.

many builds scoff at reflect - such as trappers, summoners, totems, etc.

and many really don't care much, one way or the other. generally more balanced builds (block, various mitigations, etc).

I'm sorry, but mentioning mitigation as a way to handle reflect is BS, plain and simple.
If you build is affected by reflect, even if tanky, if you have x00 k dps, you are going to fuck yourself on the first pack you find.


I found a way to "handle" reflect on my ice stormer this league :
- cut my dps in half ( and add culling strike )
- not hit whole packs - map takes twice or three times longer to clear
- rely mostly on herald of ice + profane bloom + phantasm on kill ( and my golem ) for actual clearing mobs
- rely on my occultist passives + leech to not instantly die when more than 4 mobs enter the storm.

And I have less 25% ele dmg taken, and 20% of my 'direct' dps is purely chaos damage.

TLDR : to handle reflect, I can rely on mechanics ... that are reflect immune, and that's it.
Reflect is such a freaking BS mod it's baffling why it's still in the game.
And Zana makes it even worse this league.

"

Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

Is the ideal case for map mods when we look at the majority of rares we get and have to actually analyze if it's worthwhile? And not just a casual glance to notice one specific mod, but look at them all together and ask ourselves if it's something we can do and if it's worth it to do?

I can see an issue where greater knowledge and the ability to process information faster would end up pushing us towards more immediate and binary choice instead of allowing us wiggle room. Or is the sliding scale of build power meant to address that?

Running 10s and 100s of maps pushes you to be efficient, and to make decision quicker, that's all there is.
When you know what your char can run and cannot, you know its limits, a quick glance is enough for most maps.

There are still cases with some hesitation anyway, unless it's a shaped map that you can do with the eyes closed pretty much maybe.

"

Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

As far as #1 goes, I would hope the focus is not on OP effects so much as interesting effects. But one issue is splitting up what is OP compared to what is interesting. I expect it's always of interest to find an interaction that makes the toughest or most lucrative encounters easier.

Please define "interesting".

Personally, I have no interest in following the meta train, I play what I feel like playing.

"

Fruz wrote:

I'm sorry, but mentioning mitigation as a way to handle reflect is BS, plain and simple.

*laughs in 82% block, 50k armor, + max res, and not having 300M dps*

it's as if this game is decided by choices or something.

"

robmafia wrote:

*laughs in 82% block, 50k armor, + max res, and not having 300M dps*

it's as if this game is decided by choices or something.

Last league I had a char 50+% dodge, 50+% eva, lightning coil, 5k+ armour, basalt, and less than 50k dps on hit ( but I had 2 chains and many projectiles), the rest being bleed damage.
The char survived a minotaur hit on a evasion acro char, it was anything but squishy.

Instantly ripped while trying to see if reflect was manageable, INSTANTLY (phys dmg).

So no, stop that BS about reflect being something normal and manageable.
82% block is ANYTHING but fucking normal, it's one ascendancy class heavily defense oriented.

i never said it was normal.

i said it can be mitigated.

you're basically now explaining this whole thread... but from the opposite stance. or are you seriously suggesting that you shouldn't shave off damage for defense? flip flop.

FACT: reflect CAN actually be "manageable."

"

robmafia wrote:

i never said it was normal.

i said it can be mitigated.

you're basically now explaining this whole thread... but from the opposite stance. or are you seriously suggesting that you shouldn't shave off damage for defense? flip flop.

FACT: reflect CAN actually be "manageable."

For the set of abilities/setup affected by reflect, should we consider that the mechanics ( and the numbers ) is fine because 3 ascendancies ( including one relying on "immune to reflect" /rofl ) can handle it ?
Is that it ?

Reflect in 3.4 is an aberration, period.

It's not shaving off damage for offense there, it's literally either using mechanic that are not affected by reflect, or being an Elementalist, Jugg or gladiator full tank.

Unless those very specific cases, it's not a choice anymore, it's completely binary : you die, or you skip reflect.
Screw that.


Let's close the offtopic about BS reflect now please.

yeah, it's not like there is a fairly common chestpiece that make max res up to 80. and there's not freakin' quivers and claws that grant block, as well as jewels and etc...

god forbid only a few ascendancies can use armor (WAT)...

also, people surely must use auras that grant extra damage. overkill damage is very important to have, and especially needed for reflect maps. /s

"

robmafia wrote:

"

Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

I think it's safe to say #2 is not an ideal expectation of player behavior. If the player looks at something like a reflect mod and finds its 4% pack size increase is completely outweighed by its significant mortality increase for their build then that mod is not at all worth the risk. It's one example but it certainly illustrates how certain mods end up being so binary.

except that it's only binary for some.

many builds scoff at reflect - such as trappers, summoners, totems, etc.

and many really don't care much, one way or the other. generally more balanced builds (block, various mitigations, etc).

even for those who won't run reflect maps, it merely gives them a decision to make - to reroll, trade, or other (vendor, leave it in a tab forever).

although, if this thread has taught me anything, it's that players do not want to think or make decisions at all. haha. it's actually the underlying theme of the thread...

Reflect was one example of course as I explicitly mentioned. Another that tends to be binary is no regen. Some builds can handle those because they pull from multiple defenses or can otherwise be more flexible, but that's not always saying those builds are more worthwhile since they can excel in other areas.

"

Fruz wrote:

"

Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

Is the ideal case for map mods when we look at the majority of rares we get and have to actually analyze if it's worthwhile? And not just a casual glance to notice one specific mod, but look at them all together and ask ourselves if it's something we can do and if it's worth it to do?

I can see an issue where greater knowledge and the ability to process information faster would end up pushing us towards more immediate and binary choice instead of allowing us wiggle room. Or is the sliding scale of build power meant to address that?

Running 10s and 100s of maps pushes you to be efficient, and to make decision quicker, that's all there is.
When you know what your char can run and cannot, you know its limits, a quick glance is enough for most maps.

There are still cases with some hesitation anyway, unless it's a shaped map that you can do with the eyes closed pretty much maybe.

"

Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

As far as #1 goes, I would hope the focus is not on OP effects so much as interesting effects. But one issue is splitting up what is OP compared to what is interesting. I expect it's always of interest to find an interaction that makes the toughest or most lucrative encounters easier.

Please define "interesting".

Personally, I have no interest in following the meta train, I play what I feel like playing.

I'm hoping there will be more hesitation mods in the future but yes, once you figure out which mods your build can't run then it's a quick matter to avoid them in most cases.

I don't define "interesting" as following the meta train. Mostly to me it means "Huh, that's a fun interaction. Can I use it decently? Aha, I can, I'll play with it until I feel like doing something different."

That can follow the meta train but there are times where the interesting interaction isn't really capable of getting up to "meta" levels.

For example, CWDT Hiltless using self reflect to trigger. Can be pretty fun but I would never expect that to end up as meta even if Mathil suddenly started playing it.

Something fun that might end up being meta is Juggernaut self ignite Eye of Innocence + Mokou's Embrace adding in Kingsguard and The Eternal Apple. Might only be fun for a little while depending on one's tolerance for the lost charge sound effect but there are enough ways to play with it that it'll get somewhere and be memorable.

"

robmafia wrote:

yeah, it's not like there is a fairly common chestpiece that make max res up to 80. and there's not freakin' quivers and claws that grant block, as well as jewels and etc...

god forbid only a few ascendancies can use armor (WAT)...

also, people surely must use auras that grant extra damage. overkill damage is very important to have, and especially needed for reflect maps. /s

You didn't read my examples at all I guess, you're just talking just purely out of one example ( which is one of the three 'exceptions' I mentioned for obvious reasons ; gladiator ), the rest being mostly ignorance.

There are many such people on the forums, it's fine.

And if you think that going from 75% res to 80% ( can't use +max flask or other items anymore ) will make you go from "one-shotting/instantly killing yourself" to "handle reflect", you are really living in a dreamland lol.
Keep player Path of Paper if you want, I've experienced reflect on many different builds, and at least I know what I am talking about, but arguments and facts won't reach you it seems so there is no point here really.

"

Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

Reflect was one example of course as I explicitly mentioned. Another that tends to be binary is no regen. Some builds can handle those because they pull from multiple defenses or can otherwise be more flexible, but that's not always saying those builds are more worthwhile since they can excel in other areas.

No regen is often pretty binary too indeed, it can be managed by flasks in many cases, but for example RF builds just can't run it.
Blood magic got removed at some point, let's hope that no-regen and reflect end up getting the same treatment.

"

Jackalope_Gaming wrote:

For example, CWDT Hiltless using self reflect to trigger. Can be pretty fun but I would never expect that to end up as meta even if Mathil suddenly started playing it.

Something fun that might end up being meta is Juggernaut self ignite Eye of Innocence + Mokou's Embrace adding in Kingsguard and The Eternal Apple. Might only be fun for a little while depending on one's tolerance for the lost charge sound effect but there are enough ways to play with it that it'll get somewhere and be memorable.

So niche interactions, I agree, that's something that I find interesting too.
I was playing FB dominating blow hybrid witch a long time ago, that was really fun, but not super optimized, but great times still :)