What are your 2018 toughts about an Hardmode in the PoE's futur ?

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Heli0nix wrote:

You are talking about making a real hardcore experience in PoE wich has nothing to do with the actual discussion, hardcore only remain in the fact there is a permanent death if you make a mistake.

Hardmode mean content have an increased difficulty compared to main game but doesn't necessary mean your experience is over if you die.

Oh, you're right I misread that. Well, I just watched Jumanji: Welcome To The Jungle last night so GGG could give us only 3 lives to live in a type of "three strikes and you're out" type of hard mode while ramping up the mobs difficulty to increase the challenge for a "harder to play" league while ramping down the xp needed for the 90 to 100 levels. That is one possibility. Any way you look at it GGG has to find a way to slow down PoE as the speed runner streamers are currently creating builds that fill the screen with a clusterfuck of explosions as they race through most maps in < 2 minutes. These speed freaks are wrecking the game play for the rest of the 90 something percent that will never ever be that kind of player and many that would rather quit than have to play PoE that way. To all the casual players the current pace of play required to go from 90 to 100 is so insane that most just give up rather than chain themselves to their gaming rigs to play 40+ hours a week. GGG has a huge mess on their hands and creating a special hard mode for the elite speed freaks is a way to off-load them from the current leagues so that then GGG can nerf those leagues so a level 100 build is physically possible for everyone else in their PoE playing time (maybe a couple of years).

But I'm close to 100% sure that GGG has no plans or any desire to split the top elite speed freaks off and give them a hard mode league of their own. PoE's fixed level of difficulty means some will race to 100 < 1 month, many will get to 90 in a 3 month league time of casual playing (< 20 hours a week), with most of the rest getting through the 10 acts but ending up in the 70s or 80s levels on a build.

Now that the founders are sitting pretty with Tencent money their need to make PoE more accessible to as large of arpg audience as possible is less critical as they are more well off financially and the success or failure of PoE is not as much of a concern to them now. Catering to the top streamers seems to be their primary impetus as streamers are free advertising PoE for them. If streamers do well then that can directly translate to more total players as news of PoE being a great arpg gets around the Internet.

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Arrowneous wrote:

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Heli0nix wrote:

You are talking about making a real hardcore experience in PoE wich has nothing to do with the actual discussion, hardcore only remain in the fact there is a permanent death if you make a mistake.

Hardmode mean content have an increased difficulty compared to main game but doesn't necessary mean your experience is over if you die.

Oh, you're right I misread that. Well, I just watched Jumanji: Welcome To The Jungle last night so GGG could give us only 3 lives to live in a type of "three strikes and you're out" type of hard mode while ramping up the mobs difficulty to increase the challenge for a "harder to play" league while ramping down the xp needed for the 90 to 100 levels. That is one possibility. Any way you look at it GGG has to find a way to slow down PoE as the speed runner streamers are currently creating builds that fill the screen with a clusterfuck of explosions as they race through most maps in < 2 minutes. These speed freaks are wrecking the game play for the rest of the 90 something percent that will never ever be that kind of player and many that would rather quit than have to play PoE that way. To all the casual players the current pace of play required to go from 90 to 100 is so insane that most just give up rather than chain themselves to their gaming rigs to play 40+ hours a week. GGG has a huge mess on their hands and creating a special hard mode for the elite speed freaks is a way to off-load them from the current leagues so that then GGG can nerf those leagues so a level 100 build is physically possible for everyone else in their PoE playing time (maybe a couple of years).

But I'm close to 100% sure that GGG has no plans or any desire to split the top elite speed freaks off and give them a hard mode league of their own. PoE's fixed level of difficulty means some will race to 100 < 1 month, many will get to 90 in a 3 month league time of casual playing (< 20 hours a week), with most of the rest getting through the 10 acts but ending up in the 70s or 80s levels on a build.

Now that the founders are sitting pretty with Tencent money their need to make PoE more accessible to as large of arpg audience as possible is less critical as they are more well off financially and the success or failure of PoE is not as much of a concern to them now. Catering to the top streamers seems to be their primary impetus as streamers are free advertising PoE for them. If streamers do well then that can directly translate to more total players as news of PoE being a great arpg gets around the Internet.

Let me guess, the movie was a total waste of time ? :D
Havn't digged much in the financial aspect of the game, and in fact it's not really my concern anymore i spent enough in a lifetime for PoE to be honest, i would just say that i don't think it would split anything much than now, it's a different gameplay, for different players, just like SSF or races are or SC / HC are. That's not big enough splits to be worry about, maybe i'm wrong.

All I know is, story mode in PoE is fantastic in hardcore. End-game is extremely choppy at times and full of lockups and lag making any meaningful push only viable in softcore on my end. I'd love for a death to boot you into ISC instead of Standard but whatever. I'd also like longer leagues but that's another topic. If not that, turning on a custom league for Standard players would be well-received. I'd love nothing more but to play Harbinger again. Just my two cents

I would rather see SSF improvments rather than new "hardmode".
Especially when talking about access to anything gated behing RNG.
When i play SSF, Im fine that i have to play with gear i find, this is in fact best part of it.
However what really piss me off is constant "easy" mod because currency is far too rare.
In theory SSF should be "harder" version of POE while in reality:
- I can't increase number of mobs because sextants are too rare to sustain and used to fix atlas (yep in ssf u have to change your atlas multiple of times to farm div cards).

- I rarely can afford vaaling my maps not to mention corrupting my own gear. Come on, i should be able to find enough vaal orbs to sustain constant vaaling my maps to increase their difficulty and possible loot.

- Zana mods - costs too much to add anything. I was able to sustain chaos orbs for Zana mods in beastiary but only when spamming chaos recipe non stop. It's really not fun to spend 70% or more playtime to manage your inventory (picking rares, stashing them, turning to chaos).

-Special boss access ~ if im not playing standard ssf my chance of being able to fight against some bosses is so low this content could not even exist (chayula, uber atziri) or is pointless (other breachlords, unique maps).


Because all of this while I find SSF to be most interesting mode for me it is also very empty when it comes to any challenge. I also think that to certain point game should be balanced around SSF.
For every "mf build, shaped burial chamber" player being able to spam sextants and other currency there are multiple of players that play the most basic version of game.
Content should not be gated behing RNG wall. If access to consumable items would be easier that would also make possible to increase difficulty of your encounters and this way SSF could turn into "hardmode" instead of too easy that is right now.

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Heli0nix wrote:

1- Hardmode? I know my english vocabulary isn't perfect but i tought it was pretty clear, why would i recognize something i never mentioned or asked for in first stance ? It's not only about difficulty.

The very definition of a "hard mode" is increased difficulty.

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Heli0nix wrote:

This is about adding something that contribute to the game ( in a temporary form or not ) with a large enough visibility, implementation, ladder, entertainement, and so on not just something for my personal satisfaction. Else i would remove my belt ( already did in fact, along my flasks to show how stupid power creep became ).

So in other words you're wanting the gameplay to be less boring and more engaging but aren't recognizing the limitations to creating that in an arpg environment

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Heli0nix wrote:

2- There is a little / medium demand for it, the hardmode subject come often on the table and surprisingly some good ideas already made their ways along the years. Could be a thing with a bit of work.

The vast majority of the population doesn't make it to the 30s as far as challenges are concerned. There's no financial incentive for a business to devote the resources.

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Heli0nix wrote:

3- How an hardmode doesn't fit well with gearing ? It's always about gearing i don't see how you ended to think that.

You really misunderstood that. The majority of difficulty in an arpg style game is the acquiring of gear. You can have a solid build, but without supplementing it with even basic gear it's impossible to defeat uber elder. In comparison, with the proper gear and experience, you can make the very same fight routine.

Gearing and Build ultimately dictate how difficult ANY content is.

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Heli0nix wrote:

4- ARPG's nature is repetitive ?
Tough discussion, we debated this subject over and over for years on this forum, i don't know when you joined the game, but i invite you to read some of these posts you would be astonished by the answers.
The general answer globaly tend to a yes and i generaly agree with, but not an absolute one.
Also ARPG's despite their poor "related" nature are offering a great structure to build various gameplays ( according to the legend there was even PvP in some older ARPG's ! )
Don't worry tho, with an hardmode the repetitive part will always be here anyway. Will eventualy require to use two buttons instead of one, i still have enough faith in humanity to think it's still possible.

I played D2 years ago and was farming ubers solo before I lost interest. D2 was even more repetitive (at least vanilla versions) than PoE as most of the really desired runes and items were restricted to just a handful of areas.

Eventually before quitting entirely I moved onto pvp. While it did help inject some new life, it was more a showcase of how one could tailor a build to work with in-game mechanics. I primarily ran a ww "ghost" assassin, and still remember it fondly despite its shortcomings simply because it created a different experience beyond the usual wave clear and boss run.

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Heli0nix wrote:

Regarding the last part and your advices on how i should invest my time on PoE thank you SeCKSEgai much appreciated !! Buttt i don't think it's really relevant to the discussion.

The point I was making was that you're expecting to find a different game than PoE can be. There's nothing wrong in having a continual desire for a game to be "better". But you have to be able to accept the limitations.

For example, you can't expect to get the joy of lining up a clean headshot from a first person shooter in a game that revolves around endless waveclear in hopes for loot.

Precision movement is one way to improve challenge, but as traps have shown the majority don't enjoy the "challenge" and find it more inconvenience.

The vast majority of end game is gated by a grindy map system. In order to access it, you have to spend a great deal of time, even when done efficiently. It serves mostly as a time sink.

I could keep going but the gist is this genre of gameplay is simplistic and repetitive so it's much easier to burn out. The majority of "skill" in a game like PoE isn't about precise cursor movements or buttons pressed but about understanding game mechanics and economy.

Hard mode would be cool with:

Reduced loot - like 90+% less loot except for map drops.

Penalty for leaving area - leaving area per TP or logout/disconnect kills/resets the area. Optimally insta leaving shouldnt even be possible but PoE is too unstable for that as of now.

Make enemies more dangerous and harder to kill.

Nerf player speed somewhat.

Nerf OP stuff.

First GGG should make HC great again. It has a lot of problems resulting in half of HC guild I'm in playing in fact SC.

This includes, but is not limited to:
1) 1 shot mechanics (or very fast succession of multiple hits - I see you chaos constructs in incursions)
2) Current tendency to make PoE go fast clear game - just in HC players need time to judge situations. Current meta makes them run fast, they run into something and die. And that's not enjoyable.
3) No real view of skill - it doesn't matter whether you do challenges in HC or SC - challenges done on HC should be shown in RED NUMBER. When GGG fails to give HC players even this small boon, then many players don't see a reason why to play HC.
4) Farming to 100 involves playing low risk maps like shaped underground sea over and over again. It should be dangerous to get to lvl 100, not just repetetive to insanity. I suggest adding bonus experience bonus for e.g. 1-2 hours after killing shaper, uber atziri, elder + shaper as an improvement in this area. Thus players reaching lvl 100 doesn't show their skill, but just their time and dedication investment. HC would be viewed as much harder mode if it would really mean exercising skill for speed racers.

I also suggest adding 1% of bonus exp for each DISTINCT map cleared for 1 hour and adding 1% of bonus exp for each DISTINCT map boss killed for 1 hour. (All bonus exp applied before area / player lvl penalty and other penalties).

Fine. Create a hard mode... but don't increase the loot at all.

Lets see if these masochists asking for a more difficult game TRULY enjoy the difficulty or the loot.

My thought is that this mode of the game would be a complete ghost town. "Make the game harder" sounds great in theory until you kill UBER UBER UBER x 15 Shaper for the first time and nothing drops.


People saying they want a more difficult game is BS imo. They want more loot.

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Prizy wrote:

Fine. Create a hard mode... but don't increase the loot at all.

Lets see if these masochists asking for a more difficult game TRULY enjoy the difficulty or the loot.

My thought is that this mode of the game would be a complete ghost town. "Make the game harder" sounds great in theory until you kill UBER UBER UBER x 15 Shaper for the first time and nothing drops.


People saying they want a more difficult game is BS imo. They want more loot.

And people that talk for every others people just want to talk ... you took a shortcut, i took one aswell world is going to move forward this way ... clearly

If i wanted loots why would i ask for such mode or temp event honestly ? Can be voided i don't care i'm here for the lulz and the entertainement i see in it feel free to trust it or not, i'm fine with it, as i said i'm all in for a void event if you are worry about that.

Also you will notice quite fast you don't need much loots to compete with actual game content previous patch solved the gearing part.

The game mode you are talking about would have VERY few players.

Streamers would and their viewers would probably be most of the league's players. Streamers need to feed their egos to prove "they still got it". Then the sheep that copy those streamers would feel the need to do the same.

At the end of the day, you would get a LOT of posts about "why the fuck is this game so unrewarding"?

People EXPECT rewards for effort. If you suddenly up the effort to 10x what it currently is, and keep the rewards stagnant it would create animosity.

I'm all for trying it in a void league or even a normal league or whatever... but just expect the drop of players to be MASSIVE. I could see 80% of players giving up within the first week if the difficulty is overtuned. Even if it is marketed as a "super hard" mode.

The best place to try this is at the end of a season for 1-month races (like we are about to receive) to see how the general crowd perceives it.