This game is ridiculously pay to win.

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The maximum amount that upgrades can contribute is 80% of the value of a pack.

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鬼殺し wrote:

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Pythonmsh wrote:

On a more serious note... is the lowest you can get the upgrade amount $100 for the dominator pack?

You said three things. One people could understand and would respond to (the topic title, which is all most people are capable of reading these days), one that undermined the topic title (satire, sarcasm, whatever -- inconvenient for people who just want to soap-box on, so it's ignored), and this quoted sentence, which...is really...really hard to read.

So you shouldn't be surprised that most of the responses didn't even get further than your click-bait title, and those that did had to GO ALL CAPS TO POINT OUT THAT YOU WERE BEING SATIRICAL...

but no one responded to the last bit because dealing with the first two was exhausting enough.

Honestly, I'm still trying to understand this quoted sentence. It makes my native English head speaker reading brain thing ache unfairly with monumental painfulness.

But if you're asking if $100 is the..lowest amount you can put to upgrading...Dominator...something...NOPE FUCK I STILL CAN'T UNDERSTAND IT...Seems like something about which you'd be better off just asking Support...let them deal with this abomination...it's what they're paid for.

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postrach_myszy wrote:

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Bone2flesh wrote:

People have reached level 100 and beat the full game content on a fresh account with the 4 initial stash tabs. That clearly proves this game is not P2W because all content is accessible and doable on a free account.

Because you cannot officially compete with other players you simply cannot "win". Thus another player having tabs does not influence your personal game play at all.

Not to mention how stupid it sound to call the game a DEMO or TRIAL when all content is available for as long as you want.

Stop with this nonsense.

People have reached level 100 and beat the full game content on a fresh account with the 4 initial stash tabs. Sure. After 2 or 3 years of playing with all available stash tabs. Now I can do it too. But I did not mean veterans, only completely beginners. And such a player has all 4 tabs jammed with junk somewhere around Act 8.

As for your personal objections, I completed all endgame content and I guess now I'm able to do it even with 4 stash tabs. It is easy for anybody, who has other, fully "tabbed" account. It would be harder in SSF mode, but with my knowledge of game mechanic and builds capable to do endgame I think I can do it too.

But completely new player is forced to buy at least some additional tabs, if he want to continue game in maps. That’s the fact. If playing without purchasable tabs was so easy, they would not be that popular. Nevertheless, further discussion does not really make sense, especially with whiteknight so zealous, he/she posted his/her post 2 times, to be sure, his/her bellowed game and company will be defended in proper manner.

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SisterBlister wrote:

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postrach_myszy wrote:

...

Please, stop beating that dead horse. This discussion has been held hunderds of times and always boiled down to a matter of differeneces of opinion.
Now all the forum warriors will try to convince others that only their own opinion is right, on both sides. What a waste of time...

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jack_aubrey wrote:

So what. It's worth talking about every now and then because people will read and make up their own minds. Not everyone's been around throughout the entire history of PoE forums so for some, this might be new. So, I'm here and would like to weigh in.

I've always thought it was kind of like a bell curve. Those first additional tabs are the steep incline but eventually (depending on the player) it will level off and you no longer receive that really great utility (advantage, p2w through premium tab trades) out of more tabs. I stumbled on this wiki page recently. The D2 guide says that micro transactions in this game do not give you advantages. And that's a line this company will say quite frequently in every press thing they do. For all practical purposes, that's absurd. With what's been added and what will be added to the game; especially when Twitch and YouTube are the advertising platforms showing off flashy end-game map-smashing, Shaper-deleting characters on accounts with 100s of tabs probably, that's a little much. I just can't take that one seriously. lol

But you know, we can be academic. I'm sure we can envision a scenario where a player can do every piece of game content on one build, in one league, with four default tabs. Therefor, this game is fully free to play and qualifies as such... for maybe a full-time Twitch streamer that's paid to play Path. I don't know. This game is designed for you to want to buy those extra tabs and to feel good when you do it. So, there we are.

(I know the OP is a joke, I guess we got sidetracked)

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Xavathos wrote:

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jack_aubrey wrote:

So what. It's worth talking about every now and then because people will read and make up their own minds. Not everyone's been around throughout the entire history of PoE forums so for some, this might be new. So, I'm here and would like to weigh in.

I've always thought it was kind of like a bell curve. Those first additional tabs are the steep incline but eventually (depending on the player) it will level off and you no longer receive that really great utility (advantage, p2w through premium tab trades) out of more tabs. I stumbled on this wiki page recently. The D2 guide says that micro transactions in this game do not give you advantages. And that's a line this company will say quite frequently in every press thing they do. For all practical purposes, that's absurd. With what's been added and what will be added to the game; especially when Twitch and YouTube are the advertising platforms showing off flashy end-game map-smashing, Shaper-deleting characters on accounts with 100s of tabs probably, that's a little much. I just can't take that one seriously. lol

But you know, we can be academic. I'm sure we can envision a scenario where a player can do every piece of game content on one build, in one league, with four default tabs. Therefor, this game is fully free to play and qualifies as such... for maybe a full-time Twitch streamer that's paid to play Path. I don't know. This game is designed for you to want to buy those extra tabs and to feel good when you do it. So, there we are.

(I know the OP is a joke, I guess we got sidetracked)

You're missing the core point of the reason why the discussion shouldn't be around in the first place.

P2W is reserved for games where you can buy straight up power for real money.

- If you could buy legacy Kaom's in a league, that would be P2W.
- If you could buy temporary buffs that cap your resistances or double your damage, that would be P2W.
- If you could buy a Toucan pet, that would be P2W.
- If you could buy a buff for Dominating Blow, that would be P2W.

I often see people argue that those with stash tabs will trade more and make money faster than those who do not have them. Perhaps, but perhaps not. Who knows or dares to dream? It still all relies on drops, which are the same RNG for every single player. Paying and free.

Only once they reach the point where they are getting more drops than they can store or sell, do stash tabs even become useful at all. If you don't have a lot of space, lower your prices a bit so you sell faster and require less storage space. Just applying simple economics and marketing strategies, you can do more good than any amount of stash tabs would ever do for you.

I'm not saying there's no convenience here, of course there is. Damn well should be too, some of those tabs are 20 bucks. But it doesn't make you win more, at all. Nothing in the store does, so...

FACT: Path of Exile is by definition not Pay to Win.

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foosis wrote:

Some pay2win games offer a very long linear progression where you can repeatedly pay some amount for some benefit (e.g. those horrible mobile games exploiting "whale" users), but every single pay2win game has a limit. For some, it might be go up to ten thousand bucks. For PoE it's maybe around 30. Still you "win" (see this comment) by common definition if you pay.

How about an MTX that says "you gain 3% increased experience"? That exists, it's called specialised tabs, and (remember that this game is about grinding) it increases your lvling efficiency. That's better than being able to buy a Kaom's, which doesn't fit my current build anyway (;) ).

How about an MTX that says "every 100 rare drops, you may enter a minigame where you perform a few clicks and get 5c for free". That also exists, it's equivalent to premium tabs... modulo uncertainty of the example statistics of every 100th rare being worth 5c (or every xxxxth rare being 5 ex).

Only paying users have those evident benefits. You don't get to define what kind of clear advantages in gameplay are exempt from "pay2win". My own "profit" per week soared back when I decided to use 8 premium tabs for selling instead of just one, which is consistent with what you hear from the community.

By common definition of the concept, Path of Exile in its current state is "pay to win".

As for why the discussion "should" be around: the post you quoted actually hits the point exactly, there is ground for discussion within the playerbase, and this comment elaborates on why the topic will always reappear.

Side note: I don't mind paying at all, everything PoE offers would fit within my disposable income, if only they pushed Linux support...
We should be honest about it though.

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Xavathos wrote:

Honest? You talk about honesty as if saying "There is an mxt that increases experience rates" is honest. That's a blatant lie, there is no such thing and you know it.

Your personal interpretation of a stash tab that may or may not save time putting stuff into it, ergo experience gained, is just what it is, your interpretation. To those of us on planet Earth, it's called quality of life.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but do not state it as fact. The one and only fact remains that Path of Exile is not and will never be Pay to Win, as stated by GGG themselves before launch.

Yes, I take this very seriously. I did not support this game as much as I have to see people slander its good name like this on the basis of a blatant lie. Believe what you will, as you will regardless, but don't think you'll fool me.

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foosis wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

Honest? You talk about honesty as if saying "There is an mxt that increases experience rates" is honest. That's a blatant lie, there is no such thing and you know it.

Your personal interpretation of a stash tab that may or may not save time putting stuff into it, ergo experience gained, is just what it is, your interpretation. To those of us on planet Earth, it's called quality of life.

You're entitled to your opinion of course, but do not state it as fact. The one and only fact remains that Path of Exile is not and will never be Pay to Win, as stated by GGG themselves before launch.

Yes, I take this very seriously. I did not support this game as much as I have to see people slander its good name like this on the basis of a blatant lie. Believe what you will, as you will regardless, but don't think you'll fool me.

That MTX->experience claim was straight from one of those 4-streamers-discuss-the-game vlogs. The consens afairc was that "time efficiency == winning".
What I present here is way beyond my opinion: it's what one can readily observe from the community. Please don't accuse people of lying without offering any arguments to back it up: you didn't refute any of the points presented in any of my previous three comments. In particular that some of what you call "quality of life" is commonly equated to success in the game (points D and E in my "Define winning" post).

The "ethical microtransactions" and free2play advertisement by GGG has dwindled in recent years. I agree that PoE was free2play at launch, and that's what I was pointing out with my "Conclusions have shifted over time" post.

Now if I may return the ad hominem argumentation... and I really don't mean it in a disparaging way and neither do I aim to fool anyone... could it be that your refusal to recognise plain evidence is caused by your financial investment in this game? (sunk cost fallacy)