This game is ridiculously pay to win.

I can't afford to play this game anymore with all these cool MTX's coming out lol

On a more serious note... is the lowest you can get the upgrade amount $100 for the dominator pack?

This game became P2W not because „cool MTX“, which do not guarantee any advantage over others, but because of stash tabs, which provide a huge advantage over players who do not have them. With 157/158 maps, loads of “new” fragments, currency and other items, with the practical enforcement of trade (due to ridiculous RNG on everything) playing without at least currency tab and one premium stash tab is impossible after end of the campaign. So, you want to mapping, you have to pay.

Personally I’m ok with such solution. Game has “playable demo” (campaign) and purchasable main content, no problem for me. However, it really bothers me that GGG still trying to pretend, their product is “full F2P” and not P2W game, while it actually P2W content with free playable demo. But, in other hand, smart people will recognize it quickly and others, especially “whiteknikgts”… well, they live in dreams, why shatter them? :)

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postrach_myszy wrote:

...

Please, stop beating that dead horse. This discussion has been held hunderds of times and always boiled down to a matter of differeneces of opinion.
Now all the forum warriors will try to convince others that only their own opinion is right, on both sides. What a waste of time...

"

postrach_myszy wrote:

This game became P2W not because „cool MTX“, which do not guarantee any advantage over others, but because of stash tabs, which provide a huge advantage over players who do not have them. With 157/158 maps, loads of “new” fragments, currency and other items, with the practical enforcement of trade (due to ridiculous RNG on everything) playing without at least currency tab and one premium stash tab is impossible after end of the campaign. So, you want to mapping, you have to pay.

Personally I’m ok with such solution. Game has “playable demo” (campaign) and purchasable main content, no problem for me. However, it really bothers me that GGG still trying to pretend, their product is “full F2P” and not P2W game, while it actually P2W content with free playable demo. But, in other hand, smart people will recognize it quickly and others, especially “whiteknikgts”… well, they live in dreams, why shatter them? :)

People have reached level 100 and beat the full game content on a fresh account with the 4 initial stash tabs. That clearly proves this game is not P2W because all content is accessible and doable on a free account.

Because you cannot officially compete with other players you simply cannot "win". Thus another player having tabs does not influence your personal game play at all.

Not to mention how stupid it sound to call the game a DEMO or TRIAL when all content is available for as long as you want.

Stop with this nonsense.

"

postrach_myszy wrote:

This game became P2W not because „cool MTX“, which do not guarantee any advantage over others, but because of stash tabs, which provide a huge advantage over players who do not have them. With 157/158 maps, loads of “new” fragments, currency and other items, with the practical enforcement of trade (due to ridiculous RNG on everything) playing without at least currency tab and one premium stash tab is impossible after end of the campaign. So, you want to mapping, you have to pay.

Personally I’m ok with such solution. Game has “playable demo” (campaign) and purchasable main content, no problem for me. However, it really bothers me that GGG still trying to pretend, their product is “full F2P” and not P2W game, while it actually P2W content with free playable demo. But, in other hand, smart people will recognize it quickly and others, especially “whiteknikgts”… well, they live in dreams, why shatter them? :)

People have reached level 100 and beat the full game content on a fresh account with the 4 initial stash tabs. That clearly proves this game is not P2W because all content is accessible and doable on a free account.

Because you cannot officially compete with other players you simply cannot "win". Thus another player having tabs does not influence your personal game play at all.

Not to mention how stupid it sound to call the game a DEMO or TRIAL when all content is available for as long as you want.

Stop with this nonsense.

"

Bone2flesh wrote:

People have reached level 100 and beat the full game content on a fresh account with the 4 initial stash tabs. That clearly proves this game is not P2W because all content is accessible and doable on a free account.

Because you cannot officially compete with other players you simply cannot "win". Thus another player having tabs does not influence your personal game play at all.

Not to mention how stupid it sound to call the game a DEMO or TRIAL when all content is available for as long as you want.

Stop with this nonsense.

People have reached level 100 and beat the full game content on a fresh account with the 4 initial stash tabs. Sure. After 2 or 3 years of playing with all available stash tabs. Now I can do it too. But I did not mean veterans, only completely beginners. And such a player has all 4 tabs jammed with junk somewhere around Act 8.

As for your personal objections, I completed all endgame content and I guess now I'm able to do it even with 4 stash tabs. It is easy for anybody, who has other, fully "tabbed" account. It would be harder in SSF mode, but with my knowledge of game mechanic and builds capable to do endgame I think I can do it too.

But completely new player is forced to buy at least some additional tabs, if he want to continue game in maps. That’s the fact. If playing without purchasable tabs was so easy, they would not be that popular. Nevertheless, further discussion does not really make sense, especially with whiteknight so zealous, he/she posted his/her post 2 times, to be sure, his/her bellowed game and company will be defended in proper manner.

Ah, that old horse. Since I got a few minutes of time to waste right now...

Define winning:

A. Beat the Campaign
B. Map Completion (maybe including the non-displayed ones like Uber Atziri)
C. Reach lvl 100
D. Reach high consistent average drops/hour "value" (e.g. 5 ex/h, requires high-end MF gear)
E. Reach high consistent average XP/hour at high lvls -> have many 95+ chars.
F. Win many PvP matches/tournaments (eh... let's ignore that one)
G. Custom self-set goals.

Now PoE is undeniably free2play. You can do everything with 4 stash tabs, especially A, B and deomnstrably C.
But is it free2win?
The issue here is that many people use D and E for metrics: after say 2 months, you can show off your badass build with uber gear while others are still a few weeks behind. It is intuitive and normal for virtually all multiplayer action-RPGs to use those "goals" to compete with others.

- Drops/hour is very much pay2win, because with many premium tabs, you can pick up many more items to convert into currency via trading, and thus will "win moar".
- XP/hour or highlvl chars is also pay2win, because someone dumping their inventory into currency-, essence-, divination-, ... tabs will spend significantly less time arranging stuff and more time gaining XP.

One important point is that many of the "horrible" pay2win games have a payMOAR2winMOAR mechanic. PoE does not.
You clearly win some time efficiency (drops/h and xp/h) by buying one currency tab, but buying 10 currency tabs will not make you "win 10x more", and most likely have no effect on "winning". Same goes for premium/quad tabs: there's a limit on what you can manage reasonably, and paying more than that doesn't make you win more.

Summa summarum: according to intuitive and popular metrics, PoE is pay2win nowadays. It is not paymore2winmore, and it can easily be free2win if you ignore those metrics and set your own.

no u

Everybody knows that drops/h is stream2win because streamer RNG

Kappa

"

postrach_myszy wrote:

"

Bone2flesh wrote:

People have reached level 100 and beat the full game content on a fresh account with the 4 initial stash tabs. That clearly proves this game is not P2W because all content is accessible and doable on a free account.

Because you cannot officially compete with other players you simply cannot "win". Thus another player having tabs does not influence your personal game play at all.

Not to mention how stupid it sound to call the game a DEMO or TRIAL when all content is available for as long as you want.

Stop with this nonsense.

People have reached level 100 and beat the full game content on a fresh account with the 4 initial stash tabs. Sure. After 2 or 3 years of playing with all available stash tabs. Now I can do it too. But I did not mean veterans, only completely beginners. And such a player has all 4 tabs jammed with junk somewhere around Act 8.

As for your personal objections, I completed all endgame content and I guess now I'm able to do it even with 4 stash tabs. It is easy for anybody, who has other, fully "tabbed" account. It would be harder in SSF mode, but with my knowledge of game mechanic and builds capable to do endgame I think I can do it too.

But completely new player is forced to buy at least some additional tabs, if he want to continue game in maps. That’s the fact. If playing without purchasable tabs was so easy, they would not be that popular. Nevertheless, further discussion does not really make sense, especially with whiteknight so zealous, he/she posted his/her post 2 times, to be sure, his/her bellowed game and company will be defended in proper manner.

The double post is a know forum bug and I cannot remove it. It also holds so much truth that it should be there twice. Same reason I am leaving it quoted here again as well.

Also I was not talking about someone with a previous existing account. I was talking about a brand new player with a fresh account. They exists. If only ONE existing it means it's possible.

Stash tabs are popular because of QOL and because people like to hoard stuff. They are in no way necessary to play the game in full and clear it completely as a new player or otherwise.

As a matter a fact all you need in theory is your inventory and your character slots if you were to keep only what drops that is good for your build. The stash tabs you get can be used to store upgrades for later and the few orb required for map rolling and maps.

Knowledge of game mechanics has nothing to do with stash space it has to do with research, how savvy of a builder you are and how smart you are in terms of understanding game mechanics. You don't need tabs for that, you need a brain.