Elemental Hit threshold jewels seem underwhelming compared to others.

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dudiobugtron wrote:

Are you saying added damage from other sources can't be converted either? I'm not sure I can see from the wording why the off-element added damage from the skill is nullified by "only deals damage of the chosen element", but added damage from other sources is fair game.

No what I mean is there are two lines:

"only deal damage of the chosen element"

and

"deals no damage of other damage types"

If both of those were global or local for the skill they would basically mean the same thing. If you only deal damage of the chosen element, it is pretty obvious that you wont deal damage of the other damage types, that is what only means. So the reason why they are both there is that "only deal damage of the chosen element" means the 3 elements listed above it and "deals no damage of other damage types" means the skill as a whole.

I'm not sure why they changed the wording on it, because the old one was much clearer. They should change it to "Only adds damage of the chosen Element", which is more obvious.

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Each time I have to use ruthless or multistrike in a build, I want to puke since they are among the worst damage multipliers :/

Thanks god, nowaday, we don't have to use that as much as before.

My comparison was Melee to Ranged. And Ruthless or Multistrike are much better than Pierce or Slower Projectiles. Ruthless is actually great for Elemental Hit, because it makes every 3rd hit heavier giving you bigger Ailments, of course it doesnt work well with Multistrike, but it provides potentially bigger Shocks which gives Ruthless a higher damage boost then just the stats on the gem.

Avatar of fire uses the same deal no damage wording and it allows conversions from other types. Based on wording it should allow conversion but that would be terribly OP so I’m not sure if it will. They may have kept the “can” behavior and changed the wording to “adds” to make it less confusing to new players without considering the confusion it would cause to more experienced ones.

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Vesuvius079 wrote:

Avatar of fire uses the same deal no damage wording and it allows conversions from other types. Based on wording it should allow conversion but that would be terribly OP so I’m not sure if it will. They may have kept the “can” behavior and changed the wording to “adds” to make it less confusing to new players without considering the confusion it would cause to more experienced ones.

Well, the notion is that the 'only deals damage of the chosen element' line refers to the added damage from the gem. The other line is indeed the same as things like AoF or brutality.

The text could use some clearing up though. But what we saw was probably not the fully polished final product, as far as the gem is concerned at least.

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Shppy wrote:

The threshold jewels for E-hit seem to be a little inconsistent compared to other threshold jewels, especially the recent ones.

That's because most other threshold jewels are "bandaid" jewels: they exist as a MANDATORY selection to make an otherwise worthless skill competitive. (e.g, Winter Burial for Glacial Hammer, or Weight of the Empire for Heavy Strike)

There's only a handful of true non-mandatory threshold jewels in the game already; Soul Wick, Ring of Blades, and Hazardous Research are the only three I can think of, in that they are tradeoffs that actually change how the skill is played. The latter two convert a projectile skill into a nova-type, with the extra projectiles not being something you would normally put on those skills (given they already have a bunch of projectiles to begin with) but are there to partly offset the increased spread. Similarly, Soul Wick makes specters a temporary minion akin to skeletons.

That means that the threshold jewels for Elemental Hit fall into THAT category, rather than simply adding to the power creep. Elemental Hit doesn't NEED "bandaid" jewels, since the rework is supposed to fix that. Hence the jewels are not SUPPOSED to be mandatory: going with zero of them (and using your sockets for other things) is meant to be a viable option, compared to almost every other skill with threshold jewels. (even for one that didn't even NEED the band-aid, and just get power creep from them, like GC)

Yeah, the fact that band-aid jewels exist is kind of a bad thing; the game should have the skills balanced enough against each other so that they're not needed, and could be removed/reworked into giving something other than power.

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Vesuvius079 wrote:

Avatar of fire uses the same deal no damage wording and it allows conversions from other types. Based on wording it should allow conversion but that would be terribly OP so I’m not sure if it will. They may have kept the “can” behavior and changed the wording to “adds” to make it less confusing to new players without considering the confusion it would cause to more experienced ones.

Yes you can convert, but only damage from your gear or auras.

If the Gem chooses Fire damage you cannot convert the Cold Damage from Elemental Hit to Fire to basically deal two types of damage.

The gem selects an element and adds the damage of that element to your damage, then it adds all the damage from your items, supports etc. and then it applies conversion and such. And at the end it removes everything that is not the damage type that is chosen in the beginning.

Because like I said before if both lines apply to the overall damage output one of them would be a waste, because they would mean exactly the same. And like I said changing the word "deals" in the first line (or actually the 5th one after Qualy and the 3 adds) to "adds" would remove the confusion. Because if we just think of all 3 elements of 100% and use Avatar of Fire with Cold to Fire and 2 Jewels removing Lightning and Cold as Choices we would get about 2,8 times the regular damage of the skill. This would result in a skill with 1600 base damage and to make things worse any Cold Damage and Fire Damage gives 188% Effectiveness, so its a bit questionable that it works like that. So my assumption is:

1. Step

Elemental Hit chooses one Element (lets assume Cold) and adds its 343 - 637 Cold Damage, the other two Elements are not added, because they are not chosen. This is what "Only Deals Damage of the Chosen Element" means.

2. Step

Other Damage is added. Lets assume you have a ring with 1 - 4 Fire Damage and a weapon dealing 20 - 80 Physical Damage. Now you deal 343 - 637 Cold Damage, 1 - 4 Fire Damage and 20 - 80 Physical Damage.

3. Step

Now we have something that converts 50% Physical to Cold, so we get another 10 - 40 Cold Damage, so now we have 353 - 677 Cold Damage, 1 - 4 Fire Damage and 10 - 40 Physical Damage.

4. Step

Now the other line comes into play. "Deals no Damage of other Damage types" means that we lose 1 - 4 Fire Damage and 10 - 40 Physical Damage. And are left with only 353 - 677 Cold Damage.

So yes you can convert, but not the other damage sources on the gem, because only one of them is chosen in the first place.

You seem quite certain now, Emphasy. Have you had some confirmation of your theory?

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dudiobugtron wrote:

You seem quite certain now, Emphasy. Have you had some confirmation of your theory?

It's simply how the game's coding is known to already work.

I mean, GGG COULD decide they wanted to make it work different... But then they'd have to go in and code an entirely new function to handle it, and then perform thorough testing to ensure it integrates properly with everything else. It'd be a hell of a lot of work when they could just use existing code to perform the exact same thing.

But yeah, in the order of operations, "your X is Y" stuff is applied AFTER any conversion and scaling. A good example of this is VoidForge as well; if you convert all your physical damage out, you've nothing to worry about.

The order of operations is: Conversion, increased/more, absolute fixes.

Sorry, I meant your theory about how only one of the damage types is added from ele hit itself.
I wasn't asking re: your theory about how conversion works, since that is already known to be true, as you say.

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dudiobugtron wrote:

Sorry, I meant your theory about how only one of the damage types is added from ele hit itself.
I wasn't asking re: your theory about how conversion works, since that is already known to be true, as you say.

If I understand what you're saying... That would also be demonstrable as things currently are again, since we have a few things that already operate on that mechanic. Both the CURRENT Elemental Hit and Wild Strike gems do this, as well as the unique items Doomfletch (not Doomfletch's Prism) and Voidforge.

If one were capable of weirdly converting damage types to make a roll pull damage from a different roll, then we would be able to do it with one of those setups. To make anything that allows it to do that on the new Ele hit and NOT the old gems would be in the same boat as far as extant code and writing new stuff goes.

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ACGIFT wrote:

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dudiobugtron wrote:

Sorry, I meant your theory about how only one of the damage types is added from ele hit itself.
I wasn't asking re: your theory about how conversion works, since that is already known to be true, as you say.

If I understand what you're saying... That would also be demonstrable as things currently are again, since we have a few things that already operate on that mechanic. Both the CURRENT Elemental Hit and Wild Strike gems do this, as well as the unique items Doomfletch (not Doomfletch's Prism) and Voidforge.

If one were capable of weirdly converting damage types to make a roll pull damage from a different roll, then we would be able to do it with one of those setups. To make anything that allows it to do that on the new Ele hit and NOT the old gems would be in the same boat as far as extant code and writing new stuff goes.

I'm talking about the way the new skill is worded.

Current Ele hit: Can deal X to X base Fire Damage
Can deal X to X base Cold Damage
Can deal X to X base Lightning Damage

New Ele hit: Adds X-X Fire Damage to Attacks
Adds X to X Cold Damage to Attacks
Adds X to X Lightning Damage to Attacks

Seems pretty obviously different to me. Adding damage to attacks is hardly something that requires a bunch of coding. I realise it would be OP if they actually implemented it like that though.