End game is only sustaining red maps. Fun?

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rndt_t wrote:

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Orbaal wrote:

Which btw is the real reason why clearspeed always existed in games like this, will always exist and will always be superior to other playstyles in terms of progression - not necessarily fun.
That decision has to be made by every single player individually.

This game is rng over rng, and it reward you in rng way, and mostly reward you in currency drops and yes in that case clear speed meta exists. But main topic was that - make the game completely based on rng is the easiest and the laziest way of game desining

Thats a bold claim.

Without RNG every single playthrough would be the same, which equals boring as hell.
To a degree thats the case for story mode. Drops are still RNG based ofc, but quest rewards are not.
You know exactly what you´ll get, when and where you´ll get your reward and what you have to do to earn it. Which is great for leveling, because you can already plan your build with those rewards in mind.
But its also the most boring part of the game (imho) because of that.
There will never be excitement, like "Wohooo, I got a skillbook!" - you know that already long time before you even planned your build. Its just an expected thing at this point.
A really good (rng based) drop however will be pure excitement.

RNG has to be a crucial part of the game for longevity. Its the only way to make sure, the game feels differently every single time.
How much RNG one can stomach is entirely subjective and there is no way GGG could find a way to please everyone in this regard.

So its far from "lazy design". Its just too much for you, which is fine and totally subjective - therefore irrelevant.

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Orbaal wrote:

So its far from "lazy design". Its just too much for you, which is fine and totally subjective - therefore irrelevant.

I don't said that rng in generally are bad idia, in some lvl its realy transpose some itnerest in game process. But in this game it all about rng^
- i can't progress in gear couse nothing good yellow items drops (becouse all item generation process is rng over rgn) - and i only take items from mostly trade and craft
(base itme progression in current staite of game is like - lvling till maps , than farm currency in maps with clear speed meta, than you come poe.trade and whooohooo you progress about gear)
- i can farm uber lab and dont have enchant i want - not to sell, but for my build
- in this league when im run alot of red maps i saw only 2 portal mobs and i dont get allot of recipes (how much i need to play to see end game ? 2 month ? or mayby more?) - its not about my skill, its just rng moment - rung till you find dat mobs
- why i need to run quantity gear to sustain currnecy to roll maps ? couse without some quantity ~ 30, i dont see chis or alcs as common drops
- etc, etc, etc ...

And why the heck game offer me only rng moment - where is chelenge and reward connected to this chelenge

Again rng isn't bad in generall, but ffs in this game that all about grinding gear you can grind eternal time and don't get it. As it is some fun when you find good item and said - whoooohoooo, but when you run ~ month++ and dont see nothing as shitt drops and currency its not funn at all

PS. you mansion before that quest reward are static and don't fan - i have perfect idea for you - lets skill books can random drop from every mob in game and make it t1 rarity for drop likes kaom's heart - now its more fan for you, just another layer of rng and fun yep ?

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Slaanesh69 wrote:

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BuDiu wrote:

My end game every league usually consists of a few things:

1. Get to level 100 (i actually stopped going for 100 the last few leagues just too lazy and there is actually more to do in the game nowdays)

2. Get all my challenge rewards for that league.

3. Farm end game bosses deathless (Uber Elder this league, Shaper, Uber Atziri etc etc)

4. Make a few fully finished builds that I like. Usually make extra characters once im almost done with the league.

So the game keeps me pretty occupied even after hitting red maps, because lets be honest, hitting red maps is something you do on the first day if you know your shit.

Right.

You are the literal representation of the 1%. Or the 0.1% even.

Your opinion on this particular discussion is completely irrelevant, as your gaming experience varies wildly from the average player.

And this comment is also, literally (love to hate that word!), a direct insult towards most of the player base.

I am sure we are all very impressed though.

Don't really care about the definition of an average player. I play the game to have fun, and that's where my fun is. I like to spend time on PoB theory crafting builds, learning how to min-max the systems of the game. I read public information so I know how to properly and efficiently play the game.

If people want to be slow pokes and inefficient, thats totally fine, as long as they are still having fun... At the end of the day we should be just having fun. The moment it stops being fun is the moment I quit until the next league.

I don't play for 18 hours a day for a month. When I say hitting red maps in the first day, I'm talking about first day of play time. 24/h played on a character. That is extremely doable. Thankfully most league releases are on Friday after work for me. Since I work 8-5 Mon-Fri. I get to enjoy a weekend of PoE grind, get to end game, make early profit and then just ride out the league farming things I enjoy.

It really dosen't take much to take some time and research the game and how to be better at it. If you wont bother to do that, it's on you. Devs are not going to design the game around people who don't care enough to learn about it and how to be "good" at it.

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trixxar wrote:

The entire model of endgame progression seems horribly empty and lame, and unskilled. Im sure the pro-GGG crowd has a good argument for why its well designed? Im curious what it is.

There is no excuse for GGG, they just made a spit in the face of their fellow players.
Game content should be gated by difficulty. If your character is tough enough to beat it easily, it shouldnt be forced to grind super-easy low-tier content (like, T7-T10 maps) just to gain access to relatively challenging one (T14-T16 maps).

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MortalKombat3 wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

The entire model of endgame progression seems horribly empty and lame, and unskilled. Im sure the pro-GGG crowd has a good argument for why its well designed? Im curious what it is.

There is no excuse for GGG, they just made a spit in the face of their fellow players.
Game content should be gated by difficulty. If your character is tough enough to beat it easily, it shouldnt be forced to grind super-easy low-tier content (like, T7-T10 maps) just to gain access to relatively challenging one (T14-T16 maps).

The question i have for you is : Why are you still here? Its clearly not a game for you. That way of progress was a design decision made on day 1, the game was always like that and will always be. So why are you still here if you hate the core mechanic of the game so much? Red maps were never meant to be sustainable. If you want more challenge than ask for huge nerfs to our dps output that got out off hand. That way yellow maps will be challenging again and red maps will be for no lifers like they were meant to be. You would never do that right? You wont because for some reason you feel entitled to do all game content on a whim. Thats not the case here. TLDR : red maps work as intended, we just got to strong to play yellow ones.

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kuciol wrote:

The question i have for you is : Why are you still here? Its clearly not a game for you. That way of progress was a design decision made on day 1, the game was always like that and will always be. So why are you still here if you hate the core mechanic of the game so much? Red maps were never meant to be sustainable. If you want more challenge than ask for huge nerfs to our dps output that got out off hand. That way yellow maps will be challenging again and red maps will be for no lifers like they were meant to be. You would never do that right? You wont because for some reason you feel entitled to do all game content on a whim. Thats not the case here. TLDR : red maps work as intended, we just got to strong to play yellow ones.

Ill answer just for myself. I appreciate the mechanics of the game but feel the game design choices in the atlas expansion make it much worse than it could be.

If the whole game was garbage I wouldnt post.

Like Ive said before, working towards a goal is progression. Not even staying at the same level but moving backwards is contrary to the very nature of level based ARPGs. Its reverse progression not because you lacked the skill or gear or levels, but because you did beat the boss, but it meant nothing.

The current expansion seems like a terrible waste of a good platform, and Im voicing my opinion hoping they improve it.

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trixxar wrote:

Ill answer just for myself. I appreciate the mechanics of the game but feel the game design choices in the atlas expansion make it much worse than it could be.

If the whole game was garbage I wouldnt post.

Like Ive said before, working towards a goal is progression. Not even staying at the same level but moving backwards is contrary to the very nature of level based ARPGs. Its reverse progression not because you lacked the skill or gear or levels, but because you did beat the boss, but it meant nothing.

The current expansion seems like a terrible waste of a good platform, and Im voicing my opinion hoping they improve it.

So you just misunderstood what maps really are. They are not much of a progression system. They are resources that you build up and as such you can expect to run out of them at some point. Fighting guardians and shaper is more of a reward than a goal.

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kuciol wrote:

So you just misunderstood what maps really are. They are not much of a progression system. They are resources that you build up and as such you can expect to run out of them at some point. Fighting guardians and shaper is more of a reward than a goal.

Thats one point of view, and one way to describe, but I think it makes a much less compelling game than had the expansion been treated like a progression. So its semantics whether or not the content itself is a reward or if its part of progression.

So, its a certain way now, that I and a fair number find to be bad game design. Some amount like it the way it is. GGG will have to determine the best course.

I dont think pointing out criticisms is necessarily negative. Should only people praising GGG post and no one else?

I would say criticism is essential to improvement - and given how most criticism tend to be angry tirades, I would hope people would be more appreciative of those who can offer an honest opinion of their experience without devolving into expletives to describe every dislike.

try alchemy orbs, then try vaal orbs, then try chisels, then try sextants, then do them alltogether. when you start running t11+ with 180% quantity, come back and tell me you dont find any maps. if you run your red maps without atleast alchemy ofc you will run out