GGG's argument about AH/state of trade that is grinding my gears - 2018 edition

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Boem wrote:

So your telling me they balance the story content around a presumable 50% of the community trading and the other 50% not.(arbitrary non absolute value)

And also base drop rates around such an assumption.

I just told you that it's not just about "traders" vs "non-traders", it's about to what degree a player relies on trade.



Let me ask you this, do you believe that trading is in any way considered when balancing the content and drop rates?

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Sickness wrote:

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Boem wrote:

So your telling me they balance the story content around a presumable 50% of the community trading and the other 50% not.(arbitrary non absolute value)

And also base drop rates around such an assumption.

I just told you that it's not just about "traders" vs "non-traders", it's about to what degree a player relies on trade.



Let me ask you this, do you believe that trading is in any way considered when balancing the content and drop rates?

I already stated that in my previous post.

My assumption is that GGG balances around the fact that every single player within a "trade-league" has the ability to trade.
(i use "trade-league" since ssf also exist's, but is not a consideration when it comes to the balance of content or drop-rates)

You talk about relying on trade like it's some mystical % value. It's not, a player engages in trade when his ability to acquire upgrades via alternate measures reaches 0% or when he can no longer progress with his current set-up.

This is, like i already stated multiple times, already the case. No amount of inconvenience is going to stop that fundamental behavior.

The result of that leads to three options.

1) the player engages in trade and continue's playing with his new found power
2) the player is unable to trade and has a bad experience with the game and throws it aside(famous "game is shit" feedback)
3) the player is a masochist and continue's to play with "under performing gear relative to content handled"

You make it sound like a player can just throw a few types of currency on items and continue progressing because they automatically lead to better gear options.
This is simply not the case in the current game-state.

Which is why i asked you earlier if you play SSF, since it is clearly aimed at target group 3 in relation to trade and does in fact force crafting on a player if all other factors are depleted.

I very much expect that a big portion of the "game is shit feedback" can be avoided by implementing a trade-platform in the game engine itself without increasing the efficiency of trade itself(as in the actions required to exchange goods from one player to another) which i believe would result in a better community overall and benefit GGG as an end-result.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit :

After re-reading my message.

You might think an alternate route of progression is to "farm" an area. And put a value of "option 4)" to that, but that's not currently the case.

GGG themselves already reduced grinding to the accumulation of currency to then utilize on the market place with the off-chance of finding an upgrade yourself.
Nobody i currently know off or is in my friends list is currently farming map X to find an upgrade for item Y.

They are in fact farming map X for currency type Y to then exchange for item Z on the market place.

The only situations where currency is currently farmed to craft an item yourself is in the top-end item progression or niche builds.

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Boem wrote:

You talk about relying on trade like it's some mystical % value. It's not, a player engages in trade when his ability to acquire upgrades via alternate measures reaches 0% or when he can no longer progress with his current set-up.

This is, like i already stated multiple times, already the case. No amount of inconvenience is going to stop that fundamental behavior.

That is incorrect.

I agree with Boem's logic.

I disagree with Sickness's refusal to acknowledge "Trade" as one of the Pillars of PoE's design philosophy. (They don't emphasize crafting at all - it's like a red herring thrown in to mislead players into thinking it's an option for the poor, when it's really the playground of the rich who have currency to "throw away")

As a non-trader in PoE, but a prolific trader in other games, I'd say an in-game interface is the first step toward making PoE feel like a finished project. Right now, Path of Exile SAYS "I'm balanced around trade. It's my core feature. But I don't have any searching or listing features as a part of my User Interface, unless you count trade chat and the grouping message boards." And I think that's a problem, because trade isn't in the game because it's in the game, it's because players - not the game devs - have made the tools that make it possible, and the devs seem to be fighting tooth and nail against having EVERYONE engage in trade.

(but the game is built and balanced around the assumption that everyone is trading.)

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Sickness wrote:

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Boem wrote:

You talk about relying on trade like it's some mystical % value. It's not, a player engages in trade when his ability to acquire upgrades via alternate measures reaches 0% or when he can no longer progress with his current set-up.

This is, like i already stated multiple times, already the case. No amount of inconvenience is going to stop that fundamental behavior.

That is incorrect.

Ok then provide me with an alternate route for that player to take within the current game-state.

And if your gonna say "crafting" i might break a keyboard or two in my room.

Peace,

-Boem-

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Zaludoz wrote:

I disagree with Sickness's refusal to acknowledge "Trade" as one of the Pillars of PoE's design philosophy.

I fully acknowledge "Trade" as one of the Pillars of PoE's design philosophy. If you think I don't it's because you have failed to comprehend anything I have been saying.

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Boem wrote:

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Sickness wrote:

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Boem wrote:

You talk about relying on trade like it's some mystical % value. It's not, a player engages in trade when his ability to acquire upgrades via alternate measures reaches 0% or when he can no longer progress with his current set-up.

This is, like i already stated multiple times, already the case. No amount of inconvenience is going to stop that fundamental behavior.

That is incorrect.

Ok then provide me with an alternate route for that player to take within the current game-state.

And if your gonna say "crafting" i might break a keyboard or two in my room.

Peace,

-Boem-

You are ignoring all the other reasons a player may choose to trade.

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Sickness wrote:

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Boem wrote:

You talk about relying on trade like it's some mystical % value. It's not, a player engages in trade when his ability to acquire upgrades via alternate measures reaches 0% or when he can no longer progress with his current set-up.

This is, like i already stated multiple times, already the case. No amount of inconvenience is going to stop that fundamental behavior.

That is incorrect.

How is that incorrect? I would love nothing more than to never trade, but I also want to run as high tier content as I can. And to do that, I need to have good gear. And to get that gear I need to trade. To get the currency for that gear I also need to trade, as RNG would otherwise decide on my currency. If I don't trade I'll get stuck until I get a lucky drop. Crafting isn't an option, as it requires a LOT more currency than trading, and without trading I won't have anywhere near enough currency to craft.

With an AH I might do more than the absolute minimum amount of trading, but even without it I'm forced to trade. Trade is there to offset the RNG factor, and I bet any player that isn't willing to let RNG dictate their builds (e.g. anyone outside of SSF) will sooner or later get into trading, no matter how little, if for nothing more than to get that build-defining unique or a single rare item upgrade.

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Boem wrote:

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The_Scourge wrote:

read it again. :P

Don't have to, i ignored the shit and tried to pull a somewhat relevant discussion out of it.

Peace,

-Boem-

Ah, so you deliberately missed my little jape to continue pushing your argument against someone you're never going to agree with. Got it. Sorry for interrupting your pointless head-butting! Carry on.

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The_Scourge wrote:

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Boem wrote:

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The_Scourge wrote:

read it again. :P

Don't have to, i ignored the shit and tried to pull a somewhat relevant discussion out of it.

Peace,

-Boem-

Ah, so you deliberately missed my little jape to continue pushing your argument against someone you're never going to agree with. Got it. Sorry for interrupting your pointless head-butting! Carry on.

I responded to it because he is clearly of the mind-set that what he stated was accurate.

So yeah, i got your little giggle but also used the reply to expand on his post.

Pointless for who exactly? I find it interesting that he seems to be playing a completely different PoE then me, since we come to various different conclusions.

I'm never averse to understanding other people and i understand his point, but PoE has long past the
game-state where his argument would hold relevance in my opinion. I'd probably back up his statement four years ago or so.

But now, today's PoE and the current game-state, not so much.

Peace,

-Boem-