GGG's argument about AH/state of trade that is grinding my gears - 2018 edition

"

Boem wrote:

Of course it maters, since instant buy-outs allows scripted programs to abuse such a system, while the current implementation does not.

Which is a far greater concern then "efficiency of trading".

Peace,

-Boem-

So you actually believe that non-cheating players who know about poe.trade would not trade more often if there was an in game AH with instant buy-outs?

"

Sickness wrote:

"

Boem wrote:

Of course it maters, since instant buy-outs allows scripted programs to abuse such a system, while the current implementation does not.

Which is a far greater concern then "efficiency of trading".

Peace,

-Boem-

So you actually believe that non-cheating players who know about poe.trade would not trade more often if there was an in game AH with instant buy-outs?

I don't care because it's irrelevant. Instant buy-outs will not happen not because it makes trading more efficient, but because it would allow scripted bots to participate in such a system.

So side-tracking the conversation to "well you obviously want instant buy-outs" holds no relevance or meaning for me, since i never argued for it and i see no potential for it to ever happen when considering abuse cases.

I'd say an average trade currently takes 5 minutes of a players time, searching + meeting with the person and doing the trade itself. I'd say that's pretty much "instant" already when considering from where we moved.(browsing the forums threads per thread and reading each individual item out of a 100000+ in 2012)

I'd say there is very little practical difference as far as consumer behavior is concerned since the current trade already comes very close.

If they want an item, they search for it and have it in their possession 5 minutes later.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : you know, i still remember browsing the forums for something like up to three hours for a single item.

Jumping in and out of "shop" threads, clicking the spoilers with "rings" and then individually checking each single ring in that spoiler.

PoE is so far past that in it's current state and there is no turning back to that with the current community GGG is creating the game for.
And it's GGG that moved the game to this new position and trade efficiency/community.

"

Boem wrote:

I don't care because it's irrelevant. Instant buy-outs will not happen not because it makes trading more efficient, but because it would allow scripted bots to participate in such a system.

It's relevant because it reveals where we fundamentally disagree.
You have the misconception that everyone who currently trades are trading as much as they possibly can regardless of trading system.
To me that is so extraordinarily stupid that it's hard to even respond.

"

Sickness wrote:

"

Boem wrote:

I don't care because it's irrelevant. Instant buy-outs will not happen not because it makes trading more efficient, but because it would allow scripted bots to participate in such a system.

It's relevant because it reveals where we fundamentally disagree.
You have the misconception that everyone who currently trades are trading as much as they possibly can regardless of trading system.
To me that is so extraordinarily stupid that it's hard to even respond.

That's very easy to undermine, because i can ask you what alternative does a player have that requires an upgrade.

And is that alternative possibility more efficient then trade.

If the answer is no, he is not playing the game optimally and utilizing the tools at his disposal.
And for all intentions and purposes i believe GGG balances around the most efficient strategy's possible.
(both in general balance and drop tables)

Nothing stupid about it.

Peace,

-Boem-

edit : your fundamentally claiming that a person who requires an upgrade or increase in power is going to forgo utilizing PoE.trade as that road to power because he's required to press alt-tab.

Or that a person who is aware of PoE.trade is going to forgo that road in favor of crafting or looting an upgrade himself.

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

The_Scourge wrote:

Time to bite the bullet and just do a damn marketplace like every other game, GGG.

Yeah because nothing screams really cool game then homogenization.

than, and you actually meant to say 'like'. 'nothing screams cool game LIKE homogenization'.

And I don't think a game that copies large chunks of D2's systems, look and ideas has a leg to stand on regarding NOT being homogenised if your idea of homogenisation is 'doing what works even though other games do it', oh wait, maybe they do it BECAUSE IT FUCKING WORKS I DUNNO CALL ME CRAZY OR SOMETHING.

As if PoE doesn't do enough of its own to stand out whether or not it has a functional but standard marketplace. I can see it now. Players will all be like, 'man, that PoE, it was so original and different and then they added a marketplace and oh my god it's like GGG don't you do anything but copy others!?'....HAHAHAHAHAHAH right. Most players would be too busy praising the GGGods they no longer need to deal with bullshit like price fixing and rude traders and bait and switch scams to give a fuck.

You've made some dumb arguments in the past but this is definitely in the top 10%.

"

The_Scourge wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

"

The_Scourge wrote:

Time to bite the bullet and just do a damn marketplace like every other game, GGG.

Yeah because nothing screams really cool game then homogenization.

than, and you actually meant to say 'like'. 'nothing screams cool game LIKE homogenization'.

And I don't think a game that copies large chunks of D2's systems, look and ideas has a leg to stand on regarding NOT being homogenised if your idea of homogenisation is 'doing what works even though other games do it', oh wait, maybe they do it BECAUSE IT FUCKING WORKS I DUNNO CALL ME CRAZY OR SOMETHING.

As if PoE doesn't do enough of its own to stand out whether or not it has a functional but standard marketplace. I can see it now. Players will all be like, 'man, that PoE, it was so original and different and then they added a marketplace and oh my god it's like GGG don't you do anything but copy others!?'....HAHAHAHAHAHAH right. Most players would be too busy praising the GGGods they no longer need to deal with bullshit like price fixing and rude traders and bait and switch scams to give a fuck.

You've made some dumb arguments in the past but this is definitely in the top 10%.

ROFL


AH does not fit the idea of an ARPG, if you want an AH in an ARPG game then find me one where it works\worked.


You won't find one because it doesnt fucking work in the genre of game, but you know what lets dumb down the game as much as possible so its easier to digest.

"

goetzjam wrote:

AH does not fit the idea of an ARPG, if you want an AH in an ARPG game then find me one where it works\worked.


You won't find one because it doesnt fucking work in the genre of game, but you know what lets dumb down the game as much as possible so its easier to digest.

It worked just fine in D3 once they got rid of the RM aspect of it.

And I can bounce that argument right back at you: find me an ARPG that is so obsessed with the trade aspect that it overshadows balance decisions even for those players who don't trade. Diablo 2's trading scene was accidental and organic -- Blizzard didn't change large chunks of the metagame around it. GGG liked that trade aspect and tried to make it a highlight but it's mostly blown up in their faces because it's not 2001 anymore and people expect a lot more streamlining in their online trading experiences. They're literally shoving an antiquated model down our throats because that model was part of a game that ruled two decades ago. TWO. DECADES.

Now had they managed to implement the promised/much talked about forum trading system, this wouldn't be an issue. Instead it'd be in line with so much else of PoE as an innovative mix of new and old. But they haven't. Five years plus and we're still using the same trading system we had in Open Beta, which is only one crucial step more complicated than what we had in Closed Beta with drop trades. Basically we went from Diablo 1 style trading in Closed Beta to Diablo 2 style trading in Open. GGG had the chance to evolve beyond that and we all know they had plans to from the start...but they haven't, like I said, and what we have now is not working. Well, it's working for GGG because people are still supporting and the economy is very fascinating and chaotic. And scammers sure love it. Price fixers are all over it. And MAYBE GGG are perfectly okay with that. I don't think that'd make them any worse as people if so. Although it'd be nice if they'd take a stance either way. As it is, we're still in the same fucking limbo we've been in since 2012. 'Where are the trade improvements?' 'Coming'.

The only thing they've done since then is support the third party indexers until said indexers became the standard, and GGG could do nothing but provide a back-up indexer in case said third party indexers ever go south. Whoopdeefuckingdo.

Are GGG okay with scammers and market manipulators? Many would and do argue yes, based on the fact that GGG do nothing about it. I'm still a bit more lenient there. I don't think they're okay with it but I do think they're struggling to find a solution that doesn't involve that so-called homogenisation you so scathingly mentioned. Clearly the forum based system is less and less of a reality, to the point where even if they did suddenly implement it, it may well be too complicated and strange to draw people away from poe.trade.

This all comes back to GGG failing to implement a core feature talked about from the start. We 'put up' with the trading conditions back then because of that feature's possibility. What we have now *was never meant to be permanent*. And while these things can turn out okay, I don't think this one has.

So we're left with fairly limited options here:

a) Continue as is, with GGG being constantly called out on their inability to deal with scammers/price fixers, thus making PoE look pretty bad, but not necessarily affecting their profits unless outright admit they can't do shit about the situation;

b) Implement a bog-standard marketplace with no price fixing, commitment to trade and the usual, for which some players might call PoE 'homogeneous' and GGG 'liars', but would reduce player acrimony;

c) Do something else, be it the forum-based trading or some other innovative solution that somehow has the same fluidity as a marketplace but isn't a marketplace;

or

d) Continue as is but with an active staff responding to and investigating scam reports, price fixing, etc. This would be ridiculously cost-ineffective.

I believe anyone arguing against option B is either holding out for option C or is okay with Option A, hoping for Option D instead.

Until fairly recently I was in the option C camp. GGG have repeatedly revolutionised the ARPG genre. Surely they could do the same in regards to trade!...No, I don't think so. Not anymore.

I think a bog-standard marketplace would do little to rob PoE of all that it does well. It would put to bed probably the biggest problem haunting GGG since the beta, and allow them to focus on other things. Okay, it would remove that 'human' element but if that human element is mostly contentious rather than amicable, fuck, kiss it goodbye I say. GGG wanted a barter system where people negotiate and dicker, but it's fairly clear that didn't eventuate. PoE is a time-sensitive game where people will bitch if they have to do something that takes 5 seconds extra each time, because it all adds up. And they really think a barter system where people have to sit down and go back and forth to reach an agreement is going to work? LOL such naivete is overwhelming.

So yeah, I've landed squarely in the 'eat that humble pie, GGG, do a marketplace and move on' camp. Admit that despite the game's many achievements, despite PoE remaining the best ARPG ever, the planned trading system just isn't feasible now. What's in place was never meant to be permanent, so say: we're saying sorry, very much sorry, but a marketplace is the only viable solution now. We realise this is a disappointment for those who remember us saying we'd never do it back in Closed Beta and no one is more disappointed than us. But times have changed and PoE is a very different game than it was then. We feel this is the best solution. A lot of players have asked for it and we admit we were wrong to hold out for this long. This change will drastically reduce scamming incidents and should make trading a much more pleasant experience for the vast majority of players.

Or something like that.

The sad thing is I don't think it'd be even that easy to do. But right now it's looking a lot easier than the forum based trading pipe dream they've been blowing rings with for years.

And if I get proven wrong, and it becomes a reality, and it works...you won't find a happier whale than me, so it's not like I want to be right in this. If I had my way the whole game would be SSF and item drops balanced around that but I admit PoE would die in no time were that to happen, heh.

edit: Sorry, I didn't address your 'let's dumb the game down as much as possible' blather because it doesn't deserve an answer. Simplifying trade to something familiar is NOT going to make PoE 'as dumbed down as possible'. It'll still be for the most part one of the least newbie-friendly games out there, with obfuscated wording, hidden stats and a ridiculously narrow metagame that means PoE is either way too easy (follow the meta) or way too hard (don't follow the meta) but rarely balanced between (like most other, much 'dumber' games -- maybe some 'dumb' isn't so bad, hm?). If you can't see that, step back a bit and have a look at what everyone else is playing.

Did you give an example of an ARPG it works in, if you think that it worked in D3 after they removed the real money option, your wrong.

Its fundamentally flawed to have instant buyout trades in a game that has no restrictions on gear usability, increased level caps or anything else that MMOS use to balance the trade off.


And i'm not sure you are qualified to talk at all about trade, you play SSF almost exclusivity

Yeah, you didn't even read all that. Respond a little slower next time.

I didn't respond to your query because it was a trap and you know it. Stop wasting my time, which I am giving to you in fairly large quantities right now.

"

The_Scourge wrote:

Spoiler

"

goetzjam wrote:

AH does not fit the idea of an ARPG, if you want an AH in an ARPG game then find me one where it works\worked.


You won't find one because it doesnt fucking work in the genre of game, but you know what lets dumb down the game as much as possible so its easier to digest.

It worked just fine in D3 once they got rid of the RM aspect of it.

And I can bounce that argument right back at you: find me an ARPG that is so obsessed with the trade aspect that it overshadows balance decisions even for those players who don't trade. Diablo 2's trading scene was accidental and organic -- Blizzard didn't change large chunks of the metagame around it. GGG liked that trade aspect and tried to make it a highlight but it's mostly blown up in their faces because it's not 2001 anymore and people expect a lot more streamlining in their online trading experiences. They're literally shoving an antiquated model down our throats because that model was part of a game that ruled two decades ago. TWO. DECADES.

Now had they managed to implement the promised/much talked about forum trading system, this wouldn't be an issue. Instead it'd be in line with so much else of PoE as an innovative mix of new and old. But they haven't. Five years plus and we're still using the same trading system we had in Open Beta, which is only one crucial step more complicated than what we had in Closed Beta with drop trades. Basically we went from Diablo 1 style trading in Closed Beta to Diablo 2 style trading in Open. GGG had the chance to evolve beyond that and we all know they had plans to from the start...but they haven't, like I said, and what we have now is not working. Well, it's working for GGG because people are still supporting and the economy is very fascinating and chaotic. And scammers sure love it. Price fixers are all over it. And MAYBE GGG are perfectly okay with that. I don't think that'd make them any worse as people if so. Although it'd be nice if they'd take a stance either way. As it is, we're still in the same fucking limbo we've been in since 2012. 'Where are the trade improvements?' 'Coming'.

The only thing they've done since then is support the third party indexers until said indexers became the standard, and GGG could do nothing but provide a back-up indexer in case said third party indexers ever go south. Whoopdeefuckingdo.

Are GGG okay with scammers and market manipulators? Many would and do argue yes, based on the fact that GGG do nothing about it. I'm still a bit more lenient there. I don't think they're okay with it but I do think they're struggling to find a solution that doesn't involve that so-called homogenisation you so scathingly mentioned. Clearly the forum based system is less and less of a reality, to the point where even if they did suddenly implement it, it may well be too complicated and strange to draw people away from poe.trade.

This all comes back to GGG failing to implement a core feature talked about from the start. We 'put up' with the trading conditions back then because of that feature's possibility. What we have now *was never meant to be permanent*. And while these things can turn out okay, I don't think this one has.

So we're left with fairly limited options here:

a) Continue as is, with GGG being constantly called out on their inability to deal with scammers/price fixers, thus making PoE look pretty bad, but not necessarily affecting their profits unless outright admit they can't do shit about the situation;

b) Implement a bog-standard marketplace with no price fixing, commitment to trade and the usual, for which some players might call PoE 'homogeneous' and GGG 'liars', but would reduce player acrimony;

c) Do something else, be it the forum-based trading or some other innovative solution that somehow has the same fluidity as a marketplace but isn't a marketplace;

or

d) Continue as is but with an active staff responding to and investigating scam reports, price fixing, etc. This would be ridiculously cost-ineffective.

I believe anyone arguing against option B is either holding out for option C or is okay with Option A, hoping for Option D instead.

Until fairly recently I was in the option C camp. GGG have repeatedly revolutionised the ARPG genre. Surely they could do the same in regards to trade!...No, I don't think so. Not anymore.

I think a bog-standard marketplace would do little to rob PoE of all that it does well. It would put to bed probably the biggest problem haunting GGG since the beta, and allow them to focus on other things. Okay, it would remove that 'human' element but if that human element is mostly contentious rather than amicable, fuck, kiss it goodbye I say. GGG wanted a barter system where people negotiate and dicker, but it's fairly clear that didn't eventuate. PoE is a time-sensitive game where people will bitch if they have to do something that takes 5 seconds extra each time, because it all adds up. And they really think a barter system where people have to sit down and go back and forth to reach an agreement is going to work? LOL such naivete is overwhelming.

So yeah, I've landed squarely in the 'eat that humble pie, GGG, do a marketplace and move on' camp. Admit that despite the game's many achievements, despite PoE remaining the best ARPG ever, the planned trading system just isn't feasible now. What's in place was never meant to be permanent, so say: we're saying sorry, very much sorry, but a marketplace is the only viable solution now. We realise this is a disappointment for those who remember us saying we'd never do it back in Closed Beta and no one is more disappointed than us. But times have changed and PoE is a very different game than it was then. We feel this is the best solution. A lot of players have asked for it and we admit we were wrong to hold out for this long. This change will drastically reduce scamming incidents and should make trading a much more pleasant experience for the vast majority of players.

Or something like that.

The sad thing is I don't think it'd be even that easy to do. But right now it's looking a lot easier than the forum based trading pipe dream they've been blowing rings with for years.

And if I get proven wrong, and it becomes a reality, and it works...you won't find a happier whale than me, so it's not like I want to be right in this. If I had my way the whole game would be SSF and item drops balanced around that but I admit PoE would die in no time were that to happen, heh.

edit: Sorry, I didn't address your 'let's dumb the game down as much as possible' blather because it doesn't deserve an answer. Simplifying trade to something familiar is NOT going to make PoE 'as dumbed down as possible'. It'll still be for the most part one of the least newbie-friendly games out there, with obfuscated wording, hidden stats and a ridiculously narrow metagame that means PoE is either way too easy (follow the meta) or way too hard (don't follow the meta) but rarely balanced between (like most other, much 'dumber' games -- maybe some 'dumb' isn't so bad, hm?). If you can't see that, step back a bit and have a look at what everyone else is playing.

Honestly, i don't see a need for instant buy-outs. I think spending a few minutes on a trade is not a bad thing and those insidious encounters you are describing are far and wide between lots of trades.

I have a lot more people telling me how they ended up with good friends or nice chats from a trade then i encounter sop story's of a bad trade experience.

Like i said earlier in this thread, i think the inability of PoE to guide new players to a fundamental structure of it's design(trade) is a problem that requires addressing.
I think a lot of people simply leave PoE after checking the famous "trade chat", conclude that's the extent of current trade implementation for PoE and simply go "woop, ain't nobody got time for that".

I don't think and correct me if i am wrong that there is any direction to a new player to visit PoE.trade for trading or their indexer. Which is a profoundly different experience to trade with then utilizing the in-game chat channels and watching individual listing flash by.

I think your presenting the trade-player-interaction far more callous then is generally the case and i believe if more new players where guided to it or by putting it into the game engine itself have easy access to the trade platform, they would generally stick around longer.

I flipped currency this league for two days(first time i encountered this currency exchange functionality on PoE.trade so decided to give it a go) and i had in that entire time i think two people trying to scam me.
I am talking probably around 4000 trades within two days easily.(small exchange value's of currency from which i took a small margin going back and forth)

So really, i think most players that engage in trade are just doing so to trade and not scam or get rich etc.

Peace,

-Boem-