...about PoE, scamming, its people and culture

Keeping in mind there is a difference between a scam and a rip-off. A scam typically circumvents the existing system (like the current issue of people using hideout geometry to essentially steal from players) while a rip-off is perfectly legal within the system but isn't necessarily ethical or friendly (buy low/sell high, for example, is not really scamming, but it probably is preying on buyer/seller ignorance).

By that definition, 'scams' generally will get a person punished by GGG if it can be proven they're operating outside of the law to take advantage of others.

The problem here is that they (GGG) aren't really clear on anything. They don't come out in public, stating "we condemn scams". Why? Because they are not close to being able to handheld such a statement. Can we blame them? Certainly. Is it fair to blame them? Arguably.

What we as a community can do - or sadly have to do, apparently, is educating each other. "Don't trust strangers with your valuables" should be a granted rule. "Double check the trading window" should also be granted. And lastly, "EVERY SINGLE trade you make outside the trading window are not secure".

Just don't be stupid or naive.

I wish we could ban every scammer and idiot in here, but that is utopia. It's impossible - or close to, at least. But Wraeclast is, again; sadly, a too anarchistic place. No government is willing to take responsibility. GGG aren't willing/able to be neither judge, jury or executioner in most cases, and I'm very glad they don't let the community be either.

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The_Scourge wrote:

Keeping in mind there is a difference between a scam and a rip-off.

Why are you defining it different than the rest of the world? Why are we trying to differentiate a rip-off from a scam? Is one thing worse than the other?


Scam
noun, informal
1.
a dishonest scheme; a fraud.
"an insurance scam"
synonyms: fraud, swindle, fraudulent scheme, racket, trick, diddle

Scam. Ripoff. Scheme. Fraud. Whatever. In both cases, you're WILLINGLY trying to swindle someone for your own gain.

Edit: After reading again, it might just be my definition of the word "rip-off" that is "off" here. Sorry. But in my head, selling a 10c item for 100c isn't a "rip-off" in my head, as much as it is a bad/good deal, pending on players knowledge. Certainly not morally right, but a rip-off? Ok, maybe, I don't know. On me, sorry.

You did not get scammed.

You bought the wrong battery for your remote. That is all on you.

There's an important distinction to be made between victim blaming and assumption of risk, and it's a blurry line, to be sure.

Climbing into a racecar is assumption of risk. You're not going to be able to blame anyone but yourself if you lose control of the car and crash into a wall.

On the other hand, driving to work in the morning doesn't assume much risk. Traffic laws, speed limits, driver education, and road maintenance are specifically designed to minimize the risk of necessary driving. So if you hit a patch of black ice at a reasonable speed and end up in a ditch, it's not assumption of risk, because that road was most likely supposed to be salted by the local government to ensure ice couldn't form.

Trading without using the tools at hand to check that the trade being made is within the guidelines set down by the two parties prior to the trade (talking about mousing over the item being traded in the trade window here) is assumption of risk. It's not jumping into a racecar, but it's definitely going 60 in a 35 zone on perfectly well-maintained roads. You are definitely assuming some risk there if you don't use the tools you're given to ensure that you're trading safely.

Trading currency for portals is straight up jumping into a racecar. In fact, it's like racing in the 1930s. No mandatory crash helmets or safety equipment, and if you die in a fiery crash, that's on you. No one made you get into the racecar.

It seems to me, as someone who is very against victim blaming, that enough systems exist in PoE and through third party systems to avoid getting blatantly ripped off in a trade that if you do, it's really only your fault.

And that's coming from someone who just recently sold a tier 1 unique for about half what I should have because I didn't check prices closely enough. poe.trade, poe.ninja, and poeprices.info all exist for a reason and I was careless, and I won't try and blame the guy who bought the item, because he saw a good deal and took it. I was the fool there. Lesson learned.

Just use some common sense, and you'll be fine.

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Phrazz wrote:

I wish we could ban every scammer and idiot in here, but that is utopia.

the problem here is: what is allowed and what can lead to your account being locked and you losing all mtx and support you did in several years.

nobody tells you nothing, not even ggg.

if i stumble onto a portal in someone's hideout when trying to trade (did happen) and it leads to a ban cause the guy reports you and ggg sanctions you, i would be stupid to ever support this game again.

which directly leads to another fact, everybody intentionally scamming someone would do that from an account which doesn't have any mtx attached and can be recreated and leveled to maps in some hours.

account bans in poe can only hit stupid supporters.

First, I never buy the multi-exalt, expensive gear at end-game any ways. I make builds that don't require the meta-uber-expensive-gear-flavor-of-the-league. So I never run into this issue with gear trades.

But I have seen that sort of scamming with map fragments: sellers trying the bait-n-switch, then apologizing when I notice, followed by some excuse they have none left, just sold (yet item still listed online).

If GGG did a better job of implementing a real trade system, such as locking in items at advertised prices and being forced to sell when someone accepts, we would have a lot less scamming. I'm not talking full-fledged AH, but certainly some improvements for trading. Blame GGG first for their lackluster approach to trading, then blame the playerbase for scamming within that system. Plenty of blame to go around.

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cipher_nemo wrote:

If GGG did a better job of implementing a real trade system, such as locking in items at advertised prices and being forced to sell when someone accepts, we would have a lot less scamming. I'm not talking full-fledged AH, but certainly some improvements for trading. Blame GGG first for their lackluster approach to trading, then blame the playerbase for scamming within that system. Plenty of blame to go around.

GGG put the verification step into the game so that you MUST mouseover the item in the trade window prior to clicking accept. The OP literally did everything they could to not take advantage of this protection and the result was that they accepted a trade for the wrong item.

If, like the OP, I had made one of the most easily-avoided noobie mistakes even after playing this game for 5 years I sure as hell wouldn't have made a whine thread to broadcast that fact.

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Aixius wrote:

"

cipher_nemo wrote:

If GGG did a better job of implementing a real trade system, such as locking in items at advertised prices and being forced to sell when someone accepts, we would have a lot less scamming. I'm not talking full-fledged AH, but certainly some improvements for trading. Blame GGG first for their lackluster approach to trading, then blame the playerbase for scamming within that system. Plenty of blame to go around.

GGG put the verification step into the game so that you MUST mouseover the item in the trade window prior to clicking accept. The OP literally did everything they could to not take advantage of this protection and the result was that they accepted a trade for the wrong item.

If, like the OP, I had made one of the most easily-avoided noobie mistakes even after playing this game for 5 years I sure as hell wouldn't have made a whine thread to broadcast that fact.

That is cute and all but if I remove the item second before you click accept I end up with your items and you with nothing.

To be fair there is little period of protection but it is 0.5-1sec long
And 0 if person does use server where you lag

Let's say you are EU he is Texas or Tokyo,then the protection does not exist and you can only hope item is still there.

If I was to scam people I would join laggiest server with least people and just trade them air(nothing)

Some people tried this on me and failed but in my own hideout and my hand to eye coordination is good from pro-FPS scene.

And that is still assuming you are very careful,and people generally are not
especially at night/morning and at ammounts under 1exalts

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Midoriisonehotlittlegirl wrote:

That is cute and all but if I remove the item second before you click accept I end up with your items and you with nothing.

To be fair there is little period of protection but it is 0.5-1sec long
And 0 if person does use server where you lag

Let's say you are EU he is Texas or Tokyo,then the protection does not exist and you can only hope item is still there.

If I was to scam people I would join laggiest server with least people and just trade them air(nothing)

Some people tried this on me and failed but in my own hideout and my hand to eye coordination is good from pro-FPS scene.

And that is still assuming you are very careful,and people generally are not
especially at night/morning and at ammounts under 1exalts

So I guess this happens to you a lot, right?

Edit: just noticed your bit about needing hand-eye coordination from the pro-FPS scene. Lollery!