I'm sorry but...why is there reflect again?

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LaiTash wrote:

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1453R wrote:

Reflect is a mechanic that exists to put the brakes on a certain classification of build. The same thing can be said for many other mods on both maps and critters, designed to make that map/critter particularly dangerous for certain build types. If nothing in the game could ever manage to kill you, would the game really be worth playing?

Unfortunately it also forces more people to go for totems/spectres/DP that can still deal insane damage and not care about reflect.

Totems, spectres, minions, traps, all those things do indeed bypass reflect. They also don't benefit from leech (or at least the player using them does not), and the player loses out on a lot of "if You've [X]'d Recently..." type mods. Spectres can kill themselves against reflect and be difficult to resummon. Totems are stationary and can be problematic to use in areas with damaging ground, or against enemies with wide AoE attacks that quickly destroy your totems and force you to spend too much time resummoning them. Dark Pact is Chaos damage which can be somewhat difficult to scale, and also requires shenanery to recover the life you lose. Or is built on totems and thus has the same issues as the other totem builds. There are trade-offs involved with indirect damage methods (or Dark Pact).

What Reflect should 'force' people to do is find solutions for it, or - and here's some utter heresy for the 40k memers to enjoy - slow down a little bit, stop calling any map you don't clear in thirty seconds a bad map, and maybe not instagib yourself on a reflect critter you didn't see because you've got it fixated in your head that the game needs to go faster Faster FASTER FASTER all'a time.

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1453R wrote:

What Reflect should 'force' people to do is find solutions for it, or - and here's some utter heresy for the 40k memers to enjoy - slow down a little bit, stop calling any map you don't clear in thirty seconds a bad map, and maybe not instagib yourself on a reflect critter you didn't see because you've got it fixated in your head that the game needs to go faster Faster FASTER FASTER all'a time.

What other solution than "unload all your skills as fast as you can in order not to get ripped apart" do you propose then, when a bunch of 30+ monsters is charging at you? Carefully check their mods one by one while facetanking damage?

This game IS about a lot of "react quickly or die" mechanics. Which is why reflect in its current form is so utterly counterintuitive.

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TheLiberation wrote:

Carefully check their mods one by one

Reflect Rares have very distinctive graphical effects (they look like aura circles).

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while facetanking damage?

Nope. Even if the forum elite has convinced you that they are useless, Evasion, Dodge, and Block are extremely potent forms of anti-enemy-DPS.

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This game IS about a lot of "react quickly or die" mechanics. Which is why reflect in its current form is so utterly counterintuitive.

How so?

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TheLiberation wrote:

What other solution than "unload all your skills as fast as you can in order not to get ripped apart" do you propose then, when a bunch of 30+ monsters is charging at you? Carefully check their mods one by one while facetanking damage?

This game IS about a lot of "react quickly or die" mechanics. Which is why reflect in its current form is so utterly counterintuitive.

Pause for a brief second between packs, scan for the exceptionally obvious and easy to spot Reflect aura relevant to your build (seriously, Reflect is probably the most glaringly telegraphed, easy-to-spot enemy mod in the entire game, and this includes the Giant mod), don't demand your build offscreen everything three screens away (can't avoid something you didn't know existed), don't do the Vaal Spork/Vaalerball "kill everything without stopping" thing...

Really, people act like there's no choice between Warp 9.5 clear-it-in-thirty-seconds-don't-bother-with-loot Speed Clear Meta, or plodding along in rampant paranoia mode kiting around namelocking one monster to death at a time.

I'm not telling people to go slow. I'm telling folks that if they have a ton of trouble with reflect, they need to check the wiki for the reflect graphic aura, then go slower until they find the speed they can clear and and still manage to catch reflect rares. Because the other option is adjusting your build to be able to counteract and defeat reflect without any additional input on your part (which the OP has stated he's unwilling to do) or just accept dying to the occasional reflect rare you miss (which the OP is also, fairly enough, unwilling to do).

You can slow down enough to spot the things and deal with them actively via flasks or a secondary skill or whatever, you can design a build that doesn't care about them, or you can die to them. Active mitigation, passive mitigation, no mitigation. Those are your options. There is no 'Choice 4' here. If a player is unwilling to actively mitigate reflect and unwilling to passively mitigate reflect...well then, there's one and exactly one thing left for them to do, isn't there?

Yes, agreed, and why monsters can attack, how about they stand there just being killed? How bout one skele kill I can directly level to 100?

To punish players not using Vaal pact.

I love how quickly people categorize me as a meta-clear-speed player whenever I disagree with my death, just like a lot of arguments going on on this forum.
There are a few things which I want to put here.

I'm using Brutality and Abysuss. Running Assassin's Mark and Determination, armor is 16k unbuffed, 27k buffed with endurance charges and Basalt flask the time I was reflect killed. Also, I was wearing Belt of Deceiver, "...30% reduced extra damage from crit strikes", don't know if this affect reflect on my crit or not.

I'm using Terminus Est, a 370 pdps sword. The zone I was killed was Esh domain, monster level is 70, and I saw the reflect rare mob, standing alone. During the breach run I always had my endurance charges up (enduring cry and being Juggernaut) with my CWDT immortal call and Molten Shell setup (I like the idea of having a flameguard around me).

The main skill I use is Cyclone, was on a 5-linked, which includes Increased Area of Effect (I believe), the rest was melee phys+ brutality+ ruthless, the damage per hit on tool tip is 2k1-3k5 damage, the total dps tool tip buffed is 70k or so. Fortify was in leap slam combo, which I believe wasn't up by that time.
I aim for Brass Dome as the end game chest, until that time, I run low tier maps to grind currencies.
As I said earlier, the defense of the character isn't near complete yet, and many times the reflect from low level mobs couldn't pierce through my defense, however, this one time it got me real fast that I can't even flask up.

And no, I don't do 30-second-a-map. I don't do 2 second-shaper. Gosh, if my character does around 400k dps to Shaper/Guardians, I'd call it a good one.
If I'm really to ignore defense, hell, why did I even choose Juggernaut? Berserker and Vaal pact would do double the damage isn't it.
I get it, many of you are true ethical players, who appreciate the context and the intended game pace of GGG. I may not be you, but also I'm not interested on a "5 million dps Shaper deletion Guardians famer/uberlab" so yeah, spare me on that part of the argument, you've proven yourself.

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bananapanama1 wrote:

I love how quickly people categorize me as a meta-clear-speed player whenever I disagree with my death, just like a lot of arguments going on on this forum.

If you go back and read carefully, I'm pretty sure 1453R wasn't categorizing you as that specifically, he just has a particularly passionate style of writing on these forums.

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I'm using Brutality and Abysuss. Running Assassin's Mark and Determination, armor is 16k unbuffed, 27k buffed with endurance charges and Basalt flask the time I was reflect killed.

The deficiencies here have already been covered, so I guess I shouldn't repeat what others have said. I'd also cross my fingers here and hope you've got Solaris or Lunaris equipped, and say that Soul of Steel was available on the passive tree, as was Summon Chaos Golem in active skill gems.

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Also, I was wearing Belt of Deceiver, "...30% reduced extra damage from crit strikes", don't know if this affect reflect on my crit or not.

It does not.

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I'm using Terminus Est, a 370 pdps sword.

370 pDPS isn't quite so low when you are using Abyssus, which adds directly onto that pDPS.

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The zone I was killed was Esh domain, monster level is 70, and I saw the reflect rare mob, standing alone. During the breach run I always had my endurance charges up (enduring cry and being Juggernaut) with my CWDT immortal call and Molten Shell setup (I like the idea of having a flameguard around me).

I would personally never run CwDT Immortal Call like that... far too much possibility to get caught with my pants down, in theory. But I haven't played it and you have, so I'll trust your judgment that you are always either at max endurance charges or immune to physical damage.

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The main skill I use is Cyclone, was on a 5-linked, which includes Increased Area of Effect (I believe),

Your profile shows a 6-link.

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the rest was melee phys+ brutality+ ruthless, the damage per hit on tool tip is 2k1-3k5 damage, the total dps tool tip buffed is 70k or so.

Jeebus cripes, that is a massive tooltip for cyclone.

By the way, Ruthless is probably the main thing that killed you here - random(-feeling) spikes of more than twice your normal damage is not a good story for Physical Reflect.

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Fortify was in leap slam combo, which I believe wasn't up by that time.

This is also a huge contributor to your reflect death(s). Reductions have increasing proportional returns, which is to say that the greater "reduced" you have, the higher "less" equivalent it is. If you have, say, 75% reduced damage taken, every 1% reduced damage taken translates to 4% less damage taken, which translates to 1/0.96 = 4.17% more eHP.

If we take Yugul as the only other source of reduced damage, you go from taking 0.75 damage to 0.55 damage, which is a proportion of 0.75/0.55 = 36.4% more eHP. If you got your last 2 ascendancy points to bring Fortify from 20% reduced to 23% reduced, it goes to 0.75/0.52 = 44.2% more EHP. IF you had 5000 life, that's equivalent to adding +2200 max Life against reflect.

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I aim for Brass Dome as the end game chest, until that time, I run low tier maps to grind currencies.
As I said earlier, the defense of the character isn't near complete yet, and many times the reflect from low level mobs couldn't pierce through my defense, however, this one time it got me real fast that I can't even flask up.

Hmmm... I think flasks are supposed to be used preventively.

Also, there is no difference in reflect between low level monsters and high level monsters, except Life of monster - this is only really a problem if you have extremely slow damage, damage you can't cancel (Cyclone would fit this category), or if you do not pay attention. Maybe you can get more movement speed, so that you have more opportunity to cancel out of Cyclone when you notice Reflect.

EDIT: I don't know what I was thinking, slow damage wouldn't make a difference here :p ignore that point

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If I'm really to ignore defense, hell, why did I even choose Juggernaut?

You kind of already are ignoring defense with only 27k buffed armour + 6 ECs + no chaos golem + no soul of steel + no enfeeble + you admitted Fortify was down at time of death...

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Berserker and Vaal pact would do double the damage isn't it.

That's the only way the Forum Elite would have you play, yes.

@adghar

Thank you, your response is very constructive and detailed, I appreciate. You indeed pointed out some nodes that I usually skip, will consider taking them and using chaos golem.

As for my profile, I just got a 6l armor last night, so it was different.
As for flasks, I meant life flask with instant heal, other flasks were up.
And I agree with you on Cyclone, there's a bit less control with slow movement speed as I sometimes couldn't get my self away from consecutive attacks on monsters.
Ruthless with the critical hits at the same time maybe, I ran bunch of maps today and Immortal call procs everytime I hit a reflect, maybe it slid through these gaps by that time.

Cheers.

No problem, I tried to do what I could.

You may have also just realised this, but I think this was actually missed on page 1: Abyssus is a double whammy in making Reflect dangerous against you here, because in addition to the increased damage taken, it provides a lot of your crit multiplier, and when I think of crit multiplier I think of spikes of big damage. In that case DPS is not as important as Damage per Hit.

Of course the issue is that removing Abyssus takes away a lot of your damage, and you may have gotten used to big damage. I've been there... maybe the 6th link will be enough, or you can try to buy flat physical and crit multi on jewelry.