I'm sorry but...why is there reflect again?

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Draegnarrr wrote:

vs the scale of phys hits players do, abyssus is ~ = to 6 end charges and 26k armor so your assassin could just not wear it and you'd be fine ;)

No because there aren't that many ways to mitigate incoming damage if you're assassin. I'm saying that someone with like 20k+ unbuffed evasion and full acrobatics is by no means a glass cannon, but reflect still kills you. Especially if you're using spells that don't care. Unless of course you DPS is below 150k or something, but hey, why go for assassin if this is the case - why not just take a few spectres and melt stuff in a millisecond while being almost completely safe from everything including reflect?

As for volatiles - people were rightfully complaining about it. It had all the problems reflect has.

"

Ironically, I see a lot less Shadows and Rangers complaining about Reflect than I do Duelists

Well i don't see any assassins at all, at least not on HC, maybe that is the reason. Except for saboteur and guess what - they are reflect-immune while still having insane clearspeed and single-target DPS.

Vaal Picnic has been broken since long before Berserker came along to power-break it with Clucked in Sewagery. Note that prior to the ES nerfs in 3.0.0, nobody gave a fat rat about Berserker; they all did the exact same thing but with 30k ES instead of a bunch of CWDT Berserker shenanery. And before ES it was just regular leech with Kaom's Hearts or the like, or leech from a billion active skill effects via Cast on Crit five-hundred-skills-a-second cheese. So basically Clucked in Sewagery builds before Clucked in Sewagery was a thing.

Vaal Picnic has been either part of, or directly responsible for, virtually every nerf-worthy piece of overperforming cheddar I can remember since I started playing the game. Is it not, perhaps, time to address the common thread with all these issues and see how the game performs when Instant Rule-Breaking SupahLeech is not freely available to everything?

If we have to redo Reflect before we can turn Vaal Picnic into something that doesn't contort the game into an unfixable state, then all right. Frankly, as much as I enjoy the salty delicious tears of Speedclear guys sassing Reflect (okay yes, I'm maybe slightly vindictive given how much scorn and nastiness the Speedclear folks heap on the rest of us. Muhbad), I'd even swallow them removing Reflect altogether until they have a means to rework it into an interesting state if that meant they would also finally make Vaal Picnic stop being Vaal Picnic. I'd do it under protest, but I'd do it.

Especially when the base answer is just...so, so easy. Make Vaal Pact double your leech cap and leech rate, instead of being Instant Rule-Ignoring SupahLeech. Make it halve regeneration instead of eliminating it - or keep the elimination even, I don't care. But make Vaal Pact extremely good at improving your conventional leech, instead of changing Leech into something it's not supposed to be. You leech twice as much health twice as fast, and if you happen to be a Slayer or something else with Leech rate/cap buffs, then you can still be an absolute expert Leechmaster.

Just...for the love of Innocence, enough with the literal-game-breaker Instant Leech idiocy already.

PRETTY PLEASE?

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LaiTash wrote:

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

vs the scale of phys hits players do, abyssus is ~ = to 6 end charges and 26k armor so your assassin could just not wear it and you'd be fine ;)

No because there aren't that many ways to mitigate incoming damage if you're assassin. I'm saying that someone with like 20k+ unbuffed evasion and full acrobatics is by no means a glass cannon, but reflect still kills you. Especially if you're using spells that don't care. Unless of course you DPS is below 150k or something, but hey, why go for assassin if this is the case - why not just take a few spectres and melt stuff in a millisecond while being almost completely safe from everything including reflect?

As for volatiles - people were rightfully complaining about it. It had all the problems reflect has.

"

Ironically, I see a lot less Shadows and Rangers complaining about Reflect than I do Duelists

Well i don't see any assassins at all, at least not on HC, maybe that is the reason. Except for saboteur and guess what - they are reflect-immune while still having insane clearspeed and single-target DPS.

If your using spells you mitigate it the same way everyone does, with the corresponding resist flasks and/or purity as for phys assassins aren't actually that much more likely to kill themselves than any other phys based witch/ranger/shadow because their multi isn't a great deal higher than another ascendancy and evasion works just fine on smaller hits.

I mean what are you using as an assassin that does enough damage in one hit to cause concern? daggers use BF (multiple hits high AS, frequently ele or poison which splits the reflect) bows use barrage, yeah i'm sure crit sunder shadows might have difficulties but thats a sufficiently hipster build that you'd have to make allowances anyway.

Plus after all that if you run a pure evader with 5k hp your going to die with or without reflect, you'd need significantly higher health, fortify and some kind of phys reduction, kintsugi, lightning coil, sufficient end charges etc.

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1453R wrote:

Especially when the base answer is just...so, so easy. Make Vaal Pact double your leech cap and leech rate, instead of being Instant Rule-Ignoring SupahLeech. Make it halve regeneration instead of eliminating it - or keep the elimination even, I don't care. But make Vaal Pact extremely good at improving your conventional leech, instead of changing Leech into something it's not supposed to be. You leech twice as much health twice as fast, and if you happen to be a Slayer or something else with Leech rate/cap buffs, then you can still be an absolute expert Leechmaster.

.[/i]

PRETTY PLEASE?

Then every single slayer will take Vaal pact, it becomes a must. And non-slayer becomes a half-wit slayer. Shadow and Ranger side of the tree already provide little to no life regen node, so halve that to make it becomes almost nothing, just like the original vaal pact, only that now they have a worse leech with 20k evasion, and when they take a bit hit, they die. Hell, even a leech-based can Slayer die from lightning ball and a reflect mob from an Esh breach, evasion-based with this new proposed Vaal Pact will never be viable.

Maybe merge Vaal Pact and Life gain on hit? I don't know, since almost no one uses the life gain on hit gem anyway. Make Vaal pact like: "no life regen, gain x-life on hits with attack and spell, % increased attack speed and cast speed"?

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Draegnarrr wrote:

Plus after all that if you run a pure evader with 5k hp your going to die with or without reflect, you'd need significantly higher health, fortify and some kind of phys reduction, kintsugi, lightning coil, sufficient end charges etc.

Yeah. That's another problem. You need 6k at the very least. This means taking all the life nodes available and augmenting them with +7% life jewels. Maybe wearing Kaom's if your build allows it. Now where the hell am i supposed to get sufficient end charges if i've just spent all my passives on life and endurance charge nodes are on the far side of the tree? And how do i get enough +% evasion if i somehow manage to get at least 5?

I don't play shadow exactly because it forces me to be a glass cannon, and i'd be considered a "glass cannon" even if i had full acrobatics and more evasion than any super-tanky juggernaut has armor.

Vaal Picnic not save from reflected damage higher than your hp+es, you dead because mechanic works in next sequence: hit-leech-reflect damage. So Vaal Picnic is not broken but yes, this keystone is strong and remove all your life regeneration which make for example lab runs uncomfortable and sometimes rippy. Addition reduce of life leech when you take this keystone nessecary IMO, it makes this keystone more balanced. If we say about berserks.. okay, any berserk sacrifice about 12-15 nodes for this vaal picnic that reduce there offence and defence stats. I prefer in that case use unique claw Bloodseeker which limits my pool of skills that i can use and this is balancy. What you can say about this claw? Is this broken too? I do not think so.

https://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAABAEBAAHnBLMLYQxfDc0UIBRNFrsYkRjXGjgaPhv6HM4hNCXfJy8pLitQLdIxnjSONZI64Ts7PC09_EE_TeNQR1HmU6VXDVhjWfNfP2ZUaFhoZWjya9lyD3Kpdqx3U3uMfLh82YIHg1-DzIVShjuJ2ItPjM-QVZHOlG-WbJtqnsWezZ8-ogCkGaZXpzCsqq2Nr2yvp7Qvtz68n8BmxPbGrsbYyx7PftIh0jjXlti92WHZfORR6hjvDvAf8azyL_JB8kXzjfOb9IP2SPcy97n8S_4K_lT-jw==

I play this build about 6 months ago, i have abyssus too, 2k+ armour chest, determination, fast 1h mace and prismatic eclipse in off hand with 3 green sockets. Than i goes to IR, take it and die from fckn bleed+corrapted blood pack when my anti-bleed flask become empty.. But even without IR i have about 50k armour, and i not sence any reflected damage, because damage from 1 hit was not so big and i haven't crit. This build needs Brassdome and you forget about phys reflect forever, because with him and IR you will have about 100k armour on about 90 lvl. With endurance charges and fortify it will about 90% reduction (about 1.5% of your damage from hit) which easy mitigates by base character's hp regen without any lifeleech.

Try this. I think you can grab Brassdome in next time but we all dead whatever. If you not kill by reflect you dead from spike of spell damage. Its cruel game. Be careful!

SS exile

reflect is poor game design simple...should not exist in any format , they even realised in diablo that reflect was not the answer and nerfed it into oblivion, GGG really need to either retune dps skills lower or give more options to mitigate reflect, sorry the pantheon option btw is garbage does jack all.
and slayers asc endancy reduced reflect is also garbage...time for someone to invent a unique that negates reflect, now that would be a chase unique.

personally i just play totems and ignore reflect completely...lol

Reflected damage cannot hit you for more than 40% of your max hp and applies stacking debuff that increases this cap by 100% for 4 seconds.

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bananapanama1 wrote:

Currently playing 10 days SC Turmoil, character is EstWielder, a Juggernaut, wearing Abysuss.

I'm well aware of methods to mitigate reflect damage. Had around 5k5 hp (should be much more), took Soul of Yugul, Basalt flask, endurance charges (6) and 25k armour buffed. And guess what, instant death from a single reflect mob in Esh domain, monster level 70.

What else do I do, really. Put in Fortify and do no damage? Sacrifice a ring slot for Sybil?
Does a single item, like Abysuss, which has been nerfed pretty heavily, require every single reflect mitigation out there in order to make it work? How about we just remove Abyssus completely?

I think that reflect is intended to make the players invest more on defense, play with a slower pace and prevent glass cannon builds that will obliterate everything too fast. If I invest more on defense at this point I don't think I can tackle end game.

Or is it Slayer's Headsman and the Brassdome the only choices left for such a build? Or maybe, when it comes to Juggernaut, lets just play Righteous Fire/ Resolute Technique builds and be the only ones who play the game in its actual intended slow pace.

lol.Your using Hitless Sword which hits you with 100 physical thorns damage for every enemy you hit and then you have a helm that increases physical damage by almost 50%.You dont have no block chance to and little armor to help mitigate physical damage.It's basically a suicide setup from the start.And then add in reflected physical damage and well yeah you have successfully done all you can to ensure your taking as much physical damage as possible while getting as much dps as possible to reflect as much physical damage back to you as possible.Can't imagine why your dying to reflected physical damage.

The following post got eaten by the server shortly before they went down for the announcement, so have an extra-delayed response:

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TheLiberation wrote:

Well, I don't know how much of them do you need to actually be able to pause for a while before fighting back. From my experience even with pretty damn tanky builds, even on lower tier maps you can get ripped apart if you don't fight back immediately.

One player's "pretty damn tanky" is another's "glass cannon..." you need only look at new players' threads to observe that. Out of curiosity, what do you define as lower tier maps? And what do you define as immediately? On yellow-tier Maps on pretty much all of my builds I can run around like a chicken with my head cut off for about 3 seconds before I have to do anything.

"

Um... You mean, how is PoE about "react quickly or die" mechanics, or how is it counterintuitive?

I don't think I even need to explain the former,

Truly? I mean... 10-15 years ago, I remember testing my trained reaction time, and it's 0.2 to 0.4 seconds, like the test said the average person has. On my builds, on the content that I regularly run, I get about 4 to 8 times that (1.6 seconds) to react before I'm dead.

It could very well be that we are playing two completely different games. The highest map tier I've played through is T15, at which point for some forum elite "the game hasn't even started yet," and when I was clearing those I would take maybe 10 minutes per map, which for some forum elite is "unplayable" slow. Yes, if you are aiming for the absolute fastest speed in the game, Reflect is highly oppressive - you are "forced," given the presupposition of that much speed, to build higher and higher (impossibly high?) defences, and/or take Vaal Pact.

This is largely due to what I see from the developers as the design goal of having to increase offence and defence in roughly proportional measure. The more damage you deal, the more important defence becomes. Whether or not this is a Good Thing in game design is debateable.

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Stealthe wrote:

lol.Your using Hitless Sword which hits you with 100 physical thorns damage for every enemy you hit and then you have a helm that increases physical damage by almost 50%.

He was using Terminus Est when thread originally started.

Of significant note is that at 16,000 armour, each "hits you with 100 physical damage" turns into:

pdr%fromarmour = 16000 / (16000+1000) = capped at 90% PDR, which means each hit deals a whopping 10 damage that is then increased by 43%, and presumably if he has Fortify on then reduced by 20%... leading to a "massive" 12 damage taken for each hit that he deals.