I'm sorry but...why is there reflect again?

The problem I have with reflect is that it is too infrequent for me to be able to look out for it. If you are sleep-rolling through trash mobs map after map, and suddenly a reflect mob pops out, the graphical indicator is not enough to wake me from my half-slumber.

That's why I only play builds that are reflect immune or have good enough reflect mitigation that I don't have to care about it at all.

"

Vampiruga wrote:

Crit builds always was in group of high risk builds. Or you think that if you deal high amount of damage you must be a superman and nothing kill you? In this game there are many solutions which can rescue you from reflect.

3) You have crit, abysssus, low armour and high damage from hits.. what you want? Any build MUST have vulnerabilities for balance. Try lowing you hit damage and upping attack speed for compensate losing of DPS. Or delete you crit chance by using resolute technique keystone. High dps is big strength and big responsibility. Take it and stop whine!

SS exile

I did mention Resolute Technique though, it's an entirely different build btw, I'm trying to build around Abyssus.
Also how Slayer can mitigate reflect so much better than a supposedly tanky class, Juggernaut. You maybe right about armour, I'm still figuring out how to make it much more, maybe grab Iron Reflex (which I took earlier and ditched because I only have around 900 evasion from gear to be converted to armor) and run Jake flask with Grace and Determination and...Enlighten, maybe?

Do you mind showing me your 40k armor character so I can adapt some features into my own?
Thanks for the feed back. Cheers


@adghar

Tried Chance to Bleed, indeed it adds as much flat phys as an Abyssus, the damage compared to Ruthless gem is maybe 10% less or so. It does its job clearing mobs and low tier bosses, no big damage spikes but consistent.
Put on Chaos golem and Soul of Lunaris, it helps a lot, especially with movement/attack skill like Cyclone.
CWDT combo with immortal call is pretty crucial, I think I'd rather have it on and having endurance charges up at all time. Reason is that it stops reflect after my 2nd hit on a reflect mob (asp is 5/s) and my hits after that finish the mob won't continue to reflect on me. If it's not there, I'd probably die because the %phys reduction from 6 endurance charges can't seem to catch up with Abyssus. I just have to count down the 3s cool down of IC now, it's the only gap that kill me with phys reflect.

@1453
Excuse me if I misunderstood, more than a few times I've been entitled a "meta-clear-speed whining kid" so I'd just lay it out to redirect the discussion from becoming a battle between old school players vs the superb meta clear speed guys.

True that many players wanna go faster and faster, especially when skipping bosses and grinding low tier maps with aura bots gain you the most exp and currencies in this game. I started playing (on and off) since 1.3, so yeah the game right now is just completely different than back then. Personally I don't like and don't play those wanders, fireballs, vaal sparks, Cospri discharge kinda thing.

However, I do feel like the game is in a conflict of making the players more satisfied (like, shattering mobs whole screens with 1 attack of ice shots for example) by creating new skills and new interactions, yet at the same time try to slow them down by having a cluster of deadly mechanics lying around. They (GGG) scale both ends and try to make it balanced, yet every patch players still manage to pull out some absolutely insane clear speed and single dps, and it kinda forces other builds to be able to achieve a certain threshold of damage, otherwise it can't do endgame contents.

When they nerfed poison and increased boss life, I was glad, because it won't make my casual Rt characters look dumb spending a good 10-minute Minotaur fight trying to be deathless. If, the game dps and pace is re-scaled back to the time where a 27k dps build is considered insane (duelist blender build) and that everyone needs to take their time with maps and bosses, it'll be better overall i guess.

For now, there are classes that always come last in races, dps, currencies farming. Take a good look at the race leader boards, Juggernaut, Champion, Chieftain, Dead eye, are always the least played class and generally slower (in solo play) with less damage, yet still suffer from things like reflects.

"

Vampiruga wrote:

Crit builds always was in group of high risk builds. Or you think that if you deal high amount of damage you must be a superman and nothing kill you? In this game there are many solutions which can rescue you from reflect.
1) Jugg with armour less than 40k is trash. I easly up my armour on sunder jugg to 60k with Iron Reflexes and have a big attack speed and not high damage per hit, that provides me a great defence vs reflects (read armour mechanics). Endurance charges with high armour, Soul steel node and Oak's buff helps alot.
2) Gladiators for example has high amount of block that good protects vs reflect and not high damage per hit too with great attack speed.
3) You have crit, abysssus, low armour and high damage from hits.. what you want? Any build MUST have vulnerabilities for balance. Try lowing you hit damage and upping attack speed for compensate losing of DPS. Or delete you crit chance by using resolute technique keystone. High dps is big strength and big responsibility. Take it and stop whine!

SS exile

Ok and what about assasin - ascendancy class that is DESIGNED to crit. It has no nice EHP nodes nearby. No armor nodes. A few block nodes maybe that won't save you from one-shotting yourself with +70% crit multi against enemies on full life. Neither will evasion, especially when you have to keep your accuracy high for crit to work. You may not be a glass cannon - you can have like 6k hp (not much but hey, no good life nodes around), take all the evasion and block (sorry no luck with 2H) nodes available, and still die to reflect. Even if you're extremely careful and always take a few seconds to look around - you'll STILL die because sometimes you just don't have a luxury to ensure there are no reflect mobs around. All with sh*ttons of evasion and stuff. Or maybe you don't do enough damage per hit even from crits to one-shot yourself? Sounds logical - you've just spent 90% of your passives points on life, evasion, and block. Well, there are people who want leech nerfed and VP removed. Once this is done, you'll still be dying to reflect. Plain stupid.

Reflection is there to help in your self-improvement. How do you expect to improve as a person if you do not reflect on things.

Did I do that correctly?

TO answer a question with questions - Why are there still volatiles? Why is there still chaos damage? Why is there still Corrupted Blood bloodlines? All to keep you on your toes!

"

LaiTash wrote:

...
Well, there are people who want leech nerfed and VP removed. Once this is done, you'll still be dying to reflect. Plain stupid.

I want Vaal Picnic dealt with because it breaks the rules imposed on Leech. Leech is supposed to be able to restore [X]% of your total health per second, with some items and nodes to improve that rate. Some builds/classes get to be better at (conventional) Leeching than others, with Slayer being a prime example of a class set up to be very good at Leech as its specialty.

Vaal Picnic means none of that matters.

Vaal Picnic ignores those rules altogether and says that all the damage you do period goes straight back into your health. Berserker is the most played Ascendancy in the game by far specifically and solely because Vaal Picnic and Clucked in Sewagery combine in ways that the game was explicitly rebuilt to prevent.

Vaal Picnic needs to go. Once a single keystone is no longer allowed to be all the defense any build needs?

-Leech rules can be tweaked to allow for stronger leeching overall.

-CLucked in Sewagery can be made useful without requiring Vaal Picnic and thus contorting the trees of every Berserker.

-Other Ascendancy classes can get played.

-Boss encounters can be tweaked under the assumption that players are no longer completely 100% immune to all non-oneshot damage anymore and actually have to play PoE to play PoE, not just reprogram an old Yahoo chat bot to run their total horseshit Vaal Picnic Zerkerboos.

-Reflect can be reworked to be less punishing to people who don't have Vaal Picnic, whilst ideally still representing a threat that has to be respected considering that the game is currently set up to treat Reflect as a pretty dire threat (three different Ascendancies have 'helps with Reflect!' as a main selling point, there's anti-Reflect in the tree, so on and so forth).

-Path of Exile can be a better game.

-World Hunger can be eliminated.

-World Peace can be achieved.

-Humanity can transcend itself and become one with the flow of the cosmos.

None of this is possible until VAAL GOD DAMNED PICNIC stops breaking every rule in PoE, being free and infinitely sustainable instant recovery, and negating every single attack, mechanic, modifier, and/or chihuahua that is not "Boss winds up big move and then slams for 50k health because Dodge means DODGE, and also we're sick of Yahoo chatbots with VP being better at the game than even the best players without Vaal Picnic."

.
..
...anyways.

All right. Perhaps I'm just bitter over the current state of PoE. The Volatile rework was actually pretty cool, I like how GGG did that. But then, I was never really against a Reflect rework. I'm just against Reflect being 'reworked' into a form that essentially removes it, a'la "make Reflect deal its damage as a ten-second DoT, instead!" style suggestions that are A.) the lowest-hanging of low-hanging fruit, B.) unimaginative and boring, and C.) not much different than just removing the mod. Playing tag with Volatile Cores can be a fun little emergent moment, and when a Volatile Core blows up in your grill now you know it's your fault, not the game's.

If GGG can come up with something in a similar vein for Reflect? Let's give it a shot. But c'mon, guys. We can do better than just stretching Reflect damage out until it stops mattering, right?

And either way, can we, like...fix Vaal Picnic first? o_o...

No we can't fix Vaal Picnic before reflect, or at least until there will be more damage mitigation (not avoidance) nodes on the right side of the tree. We're telling OP that his 26k armor and 6 endurance charges are not enough to survive reflect, how in the world something like shadow can even hope to survive it without VP, then?

"

LaiTash wrote:

No we can't fix Vaal Picnic before reflect, or at least until there will be more damage mitigation (not avoidance) nodes on the right side of the tree. We're telling OP that his 26k armor and 6 endurance charges are not enough to survive reflect, how in the world something like shadow can even hope to survive it without VP, then?

Ironically, I see a lot less Shadows and Rangers complaining about Reflect than I do Duelists (WTF?) and Marauders, and most especially Templars. Because Inquisitor resistance-ignoring SupahCrits are apparently heavily prone to Reflect damage. Who'd'a thunk it?

Is that because Vaal Muhfuggin' Picnic is ridiculously broken and quite obviously in need of a rework? Possibly. I'll even go so far as to say probably. But again, we go back to this idea of 'why is the game not allowed to threaten the player?' Why does Reflect have to be defanged completely, reworked into a state where it cannot reasonably be expected to threaten the player?

Again, I point to the Volatile rework. Melee players hated Volatile mobs, for almost exactly the same reasons Speedclear guys hate reflect - they felt like they didn't have a way to deal with it without compromising their builds, and there were classes of build (ranged, in this case) that didn't have to deal with the VOlatile mechanic at all. Rather than remove the Volatile modifier altogether (the way players kept demanding, and the way Speedclear guys keep demanding for Reflect), GGG eventually reworked Volatile Blood into Volatile Core. You get a homing blob of explosive elemental damage that threatens to hunt down ranged players and forces them to deal with it, but which gives melee players a couple of heartbeats to see the blob and flee. People have a chance to get around Volatile Cores, but the important part is that Volatile Cores did not lose any damage. They can still kill the hell out of you.

Reflect needs to be redone in the same way. Make it easier for players to see what's happening and engage with it, but without reducing its potential lethality. I'm sorry Speedclear folks, but you're going to have to accept the fact that sometimes you need to actually play the game.

If the game can't kill my dumb ass when I pull stupid shit, get stuck on a build that ends up bad or get in over my head? Then there's not really any reason for me to play it. Why try and Git Gudder when the game can't beat you for not being Gud Enuff in the first place?

"

LaiTash wrote:

No we can't fix Vaal Picnic before reflect, or at least until there will be more damage mitigation (not avoidance) nodes on the right side of the tree. We're telling OP that his 26k armor and 6 endurance charges are not enough to survive reflect, how in the world something like shadow can even hope to survive it without VP, then?

vs the scale of phys hits players do, abyssus is ~ = to 6 end charges and 26k armor so your assassin could just not wear it and you'd be fine ;)

in the OP's case to be frank i don't believe him, i'd believe it about EQ or sunder, some suitably slow but heavy hitting ability but a one shot with cyclone with good phys defence is unlikely, i'd probably go for he forgot to pot (or it wore off, or the mob was a nullifier), IC took endurance charges then he went through a reflect mob with just 26k armour which will be more than negated by the abyssus.

Sorry to be a dick like that but i'm fairly confident i can cyclone all day with 6 end, 26k armor and a basalt.

Vaal Pact has always been controversial ever since.

Personally, I don't like to play as a Vaal Pact character, because the no regeneration seems threatening at certain times aka desecrated ground, corrupted blood, ignites, monsters poison on hit, etc...that it sure punishes the players. Rework? Maybe, but not the vaal pact itself. Vaal pact itself provides no leech, and we still have to invest on life leech specifically, 4% of attack damage at least to be sustainable.


The broken one here is Berserker, Cloaked in Savagery, 100% leech of all type of damage, making the most ridiculous ideas like AFK build viable. Or random firestorm socketed with CWDT to leech 100% out of a shitty 2,000 fire damage as 2,000 life...instantly, it's insane.

And here's why i'm against the current reflect. It punishes you for your high damage output. Why? There are already many mechanics and monsters combo that are extremely fatal, Shock, Ignite, chaos damage, minus max resistances, %less block chance, % less armor, % less life regen, "players are cursed with..." sometime 3 curses.

Mapping-wised, the highest pack size I've ran is 55%, double beyond and breach and Essence and Torment spirits and double unique bosses, ect...I can't remember but just really really dangerous mods, I don't think there's a space to fit in reflect. When GGG intend to allow players to manipulate reach up that insane pack size (Zana mods, map mods itself, fragments, a clusters f of sextant mods, prophecies, also league specific mods), players shouldn't be punished with their high damage output. I mean, whatever build you are running (well don't include stuff like headhunter and inspired learning jewel, I think those just broke the game) if you can survive and finish it deathless you must have reached a certain threshold of damage yet put up enough layers of defense for all of those mods, and this is where reflect comes in between.

Some may argue, reflect mechanics measure the damage output and the effective hp pool one character has. Well, Es is nerfed, life is buffed, best life-based build with legacy gears are 15k hp, normal life based builds are 5k-10k, and the end game bosses hp is millions. So our dps need to be hundreds of thousands in order to take out the bosses (if it's lower then fights with, lets say, Shaper is very very difficult), and yet a small proportion of 15% reflect damage from a random rare mob can kill us if it pierces through the defenses, and 1 out of 1,000 times it will.

Again, I don't support the super clear speed meta. But an attempt in slowing them down with reflect don't actually slow them down, like you say, shadow (don't know about Shadow clearing fast now) and especially rangers don't usually complain about reflect, but it instead slows down the already much slower builds from Marauder and Duelist.
So if reflect is to nerf the tops it ends up nerf-ing the bottoms. Wanders still do 30 secs Shaped Spider Forest and counts Headhunters picked up. Gladiators meanwhile die due to a 15% reflect mob in a %reduced block chance Courtyard map. Then does reflect really do its job?

How to rework reflect? I can't think of how. But they sure handle the Volatile death mechanic pretty darn well, that ball of fire does wake me up and rush some adrenaline when i see it. Hope GGG can deal with this one as good as that.

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

"

LaiTash wrote:

No we can't fix Vaal Picnic before reflect, or at least until there will be more damage mitigation (not avoidance) nodes on the right side of the tree. We're telling OP that his 26k armor and 6 endurance charges are not enough to survive reflect, how in the world something like shadow can even hope to survive it without VP, then?

vs the scale of phys hits players do, abyssus is ~ = to 6 end charges and 26k armor so your assassin could just not wear it and you'd be fine ;)

in the OP's case to be frank i don't believe him, i'd believe it about EQ or sunder, some suitably slow but heavy hitting ability but a one shot with cyclone with good phys defence is unlikely, i'd probably go for he forgot to pot (or it wore off, or the mob was a nullifier), IC took endurance charges then he went through a reflect mob with just 26k armour which will be more than negated by the abyssus.

Sorry to be a dick like that but i'm fairly confident i can cyclone all day with 6 end, 26k armor and a basalt.

Well I can't make you believe if you choose not to, I myself was surprised that it killed me, that's why I was very frustrated and make the thread around 3:00 Am in the morning (local time) to talk about it.