The Illusion of Choice

The examples between 10dps and 5dps are just that, examples. There are there to show how choosing between superior and inferior options is not a choice.

Those are not choices because HP is superior to armor/eva/ES (ES is a special case with CI, but HP ES builds do exist) and defense is superior to offense. The reasons are already in the thread and have been acknowledged.

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c2games wrote:

The examples between 10dps and 5dps are just that, examples. There are there to show how choosing between superior and inferior options is not a choice.

Well, it's obvious that 10dps vs 5dps isn't really a choice. Doubt anyone would think it is.

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Those are not choices because HP is superior to armor/eva/ES (ES is a special case with CI, but HP ES builds do exist) and defense is superior to offense. The reasons are already in the thread and have been acknowledged.

That is just plain wrong. People use armor/evasion/energy shield (even without CI) nodes. People DO use offensive nodes. A lot of them. There is NO build that I know of that does not use at least as many offensive nodes as HP nodes.

Let me quote myself:

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Also, it's a lie that people invest 100% in defensive stats. That is not true for any build that I know of. It's not even 50% most of the time or 50% at most, but people just seem to ignore all the none life nodes when looking at a build and call life node stacking.

While there might be people playing 100% defensive builds (they have the choice to do so, you know?) every single popular build out there is about a lot more than just stacking HP nodes. Check the class forums and look at all the threads with lots of pages (that are posted by people that have an understanding of the game). You probably won't find a lot of pure defensive builds. Most builds do not have more than 35 HP nodes, actually 30 is already a pretty high amount and probably only melee builds would use that many.

I never said people don't use armour/eva/es/offensive nodes. I said "Those are not choices because HP is superior to armor/eva/ES (ES is a special case with CI, but HP ES builds do exist) and defense is superior to offense".

I also never said people take purely HP or defensive nodes. I said they are "superior" compared to the other options.

I simply said the concept of "illusion of choice" is present (to contest those saying it is not). This is my point.

Since you accept that choosing between 10dps and 5dps is not a choice. Let use change 10dps with "superior" and 5dps with "inferior".

Choosing between 10dps and 5dps is not a choice.
10dps is superior to 5dps.
5dps is inferior to 10dps.
Choosing between superior and inferior is not a choice.

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Those are not choices because HP is superior to armor/eva/ES (ES is a special case with CI, but HP ES builds do exist) and defense is superior to offense. The reasons are already in the thread and have been acknowledged.

That is just plain wrong. People use armor/evasion/energy shield (even without CI) nodes. People DO use offensive nodes. A lot of them. There is NO build that I know of that does not use at least as many offensive nodes as HP nodes.

For what you said to be correct, HP would have to be inferior/equal to armor/evasion/ES and defensive nodes would have to be inferior/equal to offensive nodes. They're not.

Just because the choice is there doesn't mean its a good one, thats the illusion of choice

I love how the "let's talk about why there are only a few gg builds" thread turned into a "let's whine about the widely known imbalance in survivability stats" thread.

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c2games wrote:

I never said people don't use armour/eva/es/offensive nodes. I said "Those are not choices because HP is superior to armor/eva/ES (ES is a special case with CI, but HP ES builds do exist) and defense is superior to offense".

I also never said people take purely HP or defensive nodes. I said they are "superior" compared to the other options.

I simply said the concept of "illusion of choice" is present (to contest those saying it is not). This is my point.

Since you accept that choosing between 10dps and 5dps is not a choice. Let use change 10dps with "superior" and 5dps with "inferior".

Choosing between 10dps and 5dps is not a choice.
10dps is superior to 5dps.
5dps is inferior to 10dps.
Choosing between superior and inferior is not a choice.

"

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Those are not choices because HP is superior to armor/eva/ES (ES is a special case with CI, but HP ES builds do exist) and defense is superior to offense. The reasons are already in the thread and have been acknowledged.

That is just plain wrong. People use armor/evasion/energy shield (even without CI) nodes. People DO use offensive nodes. A lot of them. There is NO build that I know of that does not use at least as many offensive nodes as HP nodes.

For what you said to be correct, HP would have to be inferior/equal to armor/evasion/ES and defensive nodes would have to be inferior/equal to offensive nodes. They're not.

So why does almost everyone use armor/evasion/es and offensive nodes if they are so bad? Why not go full HP nodes until lvl100 since it is so awesome apparently? While there might be people who do this it's a minority. If you know how to balance your character it is NOT inferior to get offensive nodes and armor/evasion/es nodes.

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Reizoko wrote:

So why does almost everyone use armor/evasion/es and offensive nodes if they are so bad? Why not go full HP nodes until lvl100 since it is so awesome apparently? While there might be people who do this it's a minority. If you know how to balance your character it is NOT inferior to get offensive nodes and armor/evasion/es nodes.

Because people like experimenting and then they find out it was bad?

The tree was obviously designed for people to use, thats why its there and thats why PoE doesn't use a class based system.

Unfortunately it turns out a lot of choices happen to be crap, and thats an issue with the game

I got a great idea. Lets just remove all player choice. We can just give characters arbitrary stats and skills when they level! This way everyone is exactly the same! No need for complicated skill trees and critical thinking. Since it is obviously not fun at all to mess around with character builds, lets just remove the builds entirely. You can still dress up your character in random gear though to make him feel unique, its kinda like a modified barbie game! Seems good.

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thepmrc wrote:

I got a great idea. Lets just remove all player choice. We can just give characters arbitrary stats and skills when they level! This way everyone is exactly the same! No need for complicated skill trees and critical thinking. Since it is obviously not fun at all to mess around with character builds, lets just remove the builds entirely. You can still dress up your character in random gear though to make him feel unique, its kinda like a modified barbie game! Seems good.

I have a better idea, lets actually balance the tree so that something thats not a pure tank is actually properly playable in merciless

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deteego wrote:

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thepmrc wrote:

I got a great idea. Lets just remove all player choice. We can just give characters arbitrary stats and skills when they level! This way everyone is exactly the same! No need for complicated skill trees and critical thinking. Since it is obviously not fun at all to mess around with character builds, lets just remove the builds entirely. You can still dress up your character in random gear though to make him feel unique, its kinda like a modified barbie game! Seems good.

I have a better idea, lets actually balance the tree so that something thats not a pure tank is actually properly playable in merciless

People will always complain that X is more powerful than Y. The tree could be more balanced, but regardless of any balancing efforts, there will always be a consensus 'best' way. There will never be perfect balance, unless they remove all choice. Then we are left with a very bland experience.

Besides, stating that only a 'pure tank' is 'properly playable' (whatever that is supposed to mean) in Merciless is false. I will agree that many players cannot succeed without investing the majority of their points in defensive nodes, and that HC players SHOULD invest a majority of their points in defensive nodes. Nothing short of nerfing the game content will change that. However, good players most certainly can succeed without investing that much in survivability at all. My ranger has about 1/4 of the life nodes that the majority of my builds, does this mean she is not properly playable? Most certainly not. I clear maps in a few minutes and my only recent deaths have been to desync (specifically on Brutus). I would consider her more than properly playable.